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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Pointless rule-enforcement on CSdb
Okay, you all know how I like CSDb-drama, but usually I don't create any myself, but in this case Groepaz anal-ness about CSDb-rules simply forces me to:
Here's the story: We released the PAL/NTSC version of the NUFLI editor. It pretty much only included the new universal displayer, so we kept everything else the same. However, as I noticed on X while working on Electric's Tiger, it got somehow corrupted, meaning that it would CRASH and DESTROY your picture when you drew with sprites under certain circumstances. I notified Crossbow and he confirmed it and started working on a fixed version, which i tested extensively to make sure it's all A-ok (that's v1.12)
Okay, so I approached Groepaz and asked how to best solve the problem that there's a BROKEN version of our NUFLI editor on CSDb that actually DESTROYS images! I was really willing to play by the rules (=not deleting it and not stealthily replacing it with a fixed version), but whatever I suggested and did (renaming it to "Buggy-ed" so people wouldn't find it, using the "this file is corrupted" feature in the file dialogue), he said it's all not allowed and reversed anything I would try. Now I'm locked out of our own tool and can't edit it, great. Talking about admin power abuse... I dunno what his problem is seriously, sometimes he just loves to piss people off for no reason whatsoever...
Okay, so now there's still the broken v1.11 online which people can happily download. But why the FUCK would anyone want a broken version of a tool that DESTROYS your picture? This is not some 90% party version of a Demo, so what's the fucking point? Okay, so we released it corrupted, our bad. But should we be punished indefinately for it when we FIXED it meanwhile? And why can't I simply use the "this file is corrupted" feature? What's the point being anal about THAT, too? I mean - you CAN still download it and masturbate over a disfunctional c64 tool if that's your sexual preference, but at least you'll know it's br0ken! The *only* hint that it's broken is in the comments, which thank god GroeFaZ didn't delete...
Good v1.12: NUFLI Editor V1.12
Bad v1.11: NUFLI Editor V1.11 [broken] |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
<Post edited by chatGPZ on 9/11-2010 13:35>
once again
a file marked as corrupt does NOT mean "this file is somehow broken".
a file marked corrupt means "we only found a broken version of this file, look out for the working version".
and no, making sure that the various fields in the database are not abused for something they are not isnt pointless rules enforcement, its the fundamental idea of maintaining a database.
and as much as you wish it would be the case - this is not me abusing my moderater status. this all has been decided and enforced by the moderation team.
(and yes, every broken release will be archived eventually. the best way to avoid this is to release less crap)
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Look up the words "pointless" and "disfunctional" in the dictionary, pretty please! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
i knew already that you dont want to understand how it works, no need to point it out again really :) |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Okay, let me rephrase it so you can understand it: I know what the rules are for. Do you honestly believe this is the case here? Please do tell me who desperately sees a need to download a version of a DISFUNCTIONAL tool!
And as for "look out for a working version": If I just happen to find a working version in my inbox, does that mean I can simply replace it? 8))) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
@Deekay: I think people are more than capable of reading your comments and warnings on the 1.11 version. Don't worry about it.
As an alternative, you could write a scroll text about the drama and release it as "NUFLI editor v1.11 [pal/ntsc] Don't use it!". Thus, when searching for the NUFLI-editor people would see that release just beside the real v1.11. :) |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
I'd love to see that. I can supply you with CSDb DRAMA-logo (made with the RRR-logo-generator, ofcourse!). |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Thanks very much for the "less crap" comment btw! That *really* makes me want to contribute to the scene and CSDb! ;-D
Also, people replace stuff stealthily all the time, but you're punishing *me* explicitly for actually approaching you on how to do this the right way! By asking you, I've shown that I do not need to be "educated" on the rules, so STFU. If CSDb absolutely doesn't want people to meddle with added stuff, you should remove the "remove link" button - which you didn't, so what's the point of it being there in the first place?
btw: Are you the same Groepaz that laughs about Wikipedia-Rule-Nazis? 8) The whole irony of the situation seems to escape you here...
JA: Haha, great idea! NOT! 8) |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
And 2ffie: How often have you looked up a known tool on CSDb simply because you needed it and immediately clicked on "download" without bothering to read the comments? I know I do it all the time!
All these pointless rules have been enforced for years for that day in the distant the future, when CSDb will FINALLY support versioning! I still don't know what I'd want with a disfunctional version of a tool then, but I'm sure it'll be great!
CSDb-Versioning will be enabled the day that Meet Crest, Duke Nukem Forever and HURD are released! <:-)
Please do search for "hoxs" in the search box. 56 matches for one tool. My god. WHAT'S THE POINT??? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Quote:Please do tell me who desperately sees a need to download a version of a DISFUNCTIONAL tool!
thats completely irrelevant - and thats exactly what you dont want to understand. a release will be archived, wether you or anyone else likes it or wants to download it doesnt matter at all.
Quote:Also, people replace stuff stealthily all the time, but you're punishing *me* explicitly for actually approaching you on how to do this the right way!
nonsense. and indeed, people replace stuff all the time. but they seldomly break the rules - and if they do, they get told, and usually everything is resolved within 3 minutes.
other than that, word up jackasser. go make a demo about it :) |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quote:
thats completely irrelevant - and thats exactly what you dont want to understand. a release will be archived, wether you or anyone else likes it or wants to download it doesnt matter at all.
Why????
Quote:
nonsense. and indeed, people replace stuff all the time. but they seldomly break the rules -
Bullshit. I've done it without consequences in the past (before I knew about the rules) and I know of many other people that did. Remember Graham's advice to do just that on IRC? 8) Also, you cannot do *anything* when the links are external, people can simply replace the file on their server and that is that - So what's the freaking point???
Quote:and if they do, they get told, and usually everything is resolved within 3 minutes.
Bla bla bla bla - you know the lesson I learned from all this crap, Mr. Gestapo? DON'T ASK HOW TO PLAY NICE! |
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Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 421 |
I'm going to download v1.11, it has a higher rating (straight 10) while 1.12 only has 9.8... |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Hahahaha! 8) GREAT point, Mr.Sid! ;-D |
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cavey
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 68 |
What if somebody actually wants to make USE of the corrupting bugs in the program? You would withhold that possibility to those people ;)
Besides, without bugs, there wouldn't be bugfixes and newer versions of programs.
How about repackaging the buggy version with a readme.txt that says the program has a serious bug, with the circumstances under which the bug occurs, and a suggestion to download the newest version in case you do not want that bug to happen?
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daison
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 90 |
I guess the entire issue is about active sceners vs archivers. Virtually all the CSDB drama is based upon this.
Not much to do about it since 'rules are rules'...
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
If i repackage it, i have to re-add the file. And that is against the rules.
Also, this is not a bug but rather a corruption of totally unchanged memory areas that worked just fine before, so that's a bit of a difference... And with tools like Firefox etc there's a lot more changes with every release than merely one feature, so you NEED to keep the old version online - also for certification reasons, there's a whole ecosystem with bebbrowsers that is simply not the case for NUFLI...
But I'm sure if they just happened to release a Firefox version that simply DID NOT WORK, they'd replace it immediately with one that would... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Quote:Why????
because csdb is a software archive, and so all versions will get archived. its as simply as that.
Quote:I've done it without consequences in the past (before I knew about the rules) and I know of many other people that did. Remember Graham's advice to do just that on IRC? 8) Also, you cannot do *anything* when the links are external, people can simply replace the file on their server and that is that - So what's the freaking point???
and because there are still ways to bend the rules and get away with it, we should completely remove them! ofcourse.
no, infact what you say are the reasons why we add local copies of every file if we stumble about external-link only entries. and its the reason why links to binaries are beeing logged and binaries are never deleted for real. you can obviously always be sneaky - but dont complain if someone notices.
Quote:DON'T ASK HOW TO PLAY NICE!
see above. i recommend asking graham what happened last time though =P
Quote:I guess the entire issue is about active sceners vs archivers. Virtuall all the CSDB drama is based upon this.
word. its the one single thing where opinions clash indeed. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
There's a feature called 'goof' in CSDb, where you can comment on buggy software.
I helped you... |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Okay, we did find a solution on IRC: I'll repackage the .prg of the b0rked version with a DON'T-USE-THIS.txt in the folder /dont/use/this/its/buggy/and/will/destroy/your/picture/if/you/use/the/sprite/mod e/ and re-add that... |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Really, if you can't bend the holy CSDb rules even in cases like that, accept my deepest condolences. This is silly, and if you lost touch to reality that much to not know when to turn a blind eye to something you really should go out and take a walk for a change. |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
Due to some personal issues perff wont be back for a while, but when he does i will ask him about versioning :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Quote:Really, if you can't bend the holy CSDb rules even in cases like that, accept my deepest condolences. This is silly, and if you lost touch to reality that much to not know when to turn a blind eye to something you really should go out and take a walk for a change.
please elaborate how making sure a certain something in the database means exactly what its supposed to mean can be silly. especially in a case like this, where it is about a simple yes/no question.
to make it clear again: "this image is corrupted" is a feature ment for those people who do nothing but look around csdb and add/fix/complete a lot of entries (you know who you are). it is NOT for users to know wether a certain release works or not. and as such, the information "this release is somehow broken, for whatever reason" is completely irrelevant, because the people adding/fixing entries need to know wether another working version of this release may eventually exist. and as a result marking something as corrupted which was simply broken from the start and was never released in working form is misleading and contraproductive.
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Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 421 |
What about the option of marking a release as "deprecated"?
Meaning: "Hey, it's archived, you can still download it, knock yourself out with it, but you should also know that there's a newer version, which is probably much better...".
Archive saved, Release platform improved, everybody wins, right? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
ofcourse, that would be an option |
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daison
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 90 |
but...? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
same as always, perff is very busy these days (and completely gone for a while due to personal reasons atm) and he is the one who would implement this stuff. and there already is a long list of TODOs aswell :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: Quote:Really, if you can't bend the holy CSDb rules even in cases like that, accept my deepest condolences. This is silly, and if you lost touch to reality that much to not know when to turn a blind eye to something you really should go out and take a walk for a change.
please elaborate how making sure a certain something in the database means exactly what its supposed to mean can be silly. especially in a case like this, where it is about a simple yes/no question.
to make it clear again: "this image is corrupted" is a feature ment for those people who do nothing but look around csdb and add/fix/complete a lot of entries (you know who you are). it is NOT for users to know wether a certain release works or not. and as such, the information "this release is somehow broken, for whatever reason" is completely irrelevant, because the people adding/fixing entries need to know wether another working version of this release may eventually exist. and as a result marking something as corrupted which was simply broken from the start and was never released in working form is misleading and contraproductive.
Lengthy strawman. Steppe has lead. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
Lamers! |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quoting Groepaz
and because there are still ways to bend the rules and get away with it, we should completely remove them! ofcourse.
Oh my, the good old Lunatic Fringe nonsense...
LUNATIC FRINGE:
If a person is making an imaginative or novel point, the approach here is to push the idea to a radical extreme generally agreed to be bad.
Now, where exactly did I say "completely remove them" or *anything* even *hinting* in that direction?
CSDb-admins should be humans, not act like programs...
Quote:no, infact what you say are the reasons why we add local copies of every file if we stumble about external-link only entries. and its the reason why links to binaries are beeing logged and binaries are never deleted for real. you can obviously always be sneaky - but dont complain if someone notices.
Yeah, "notice", LOL, right... I was stupid enough to think that asking you for help was the better approach, which implanted the buggy NUFLI editor firmly onto your Gestapo-Radar! <:-) Sorry, won't happen again!... |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Problem is that CSDb in fact has become the main release site for C64 stuff although that is not its original and real purpose, a database. Databases store everything, even bugged releases, but that has been said above.
I'd say: add info on the file being buggy into the entry title as everyone will see that; unlike reading comments. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
<Post edited by chatGPZ on 9/11-2010 18:40>
Quote:Yeah, "notice", LOL, right... I was stupid enough to think that asking you for help was the better approach, which implanted the buggy NUFLI editor firmly onto your Gestapo-Radar! <:-)
sorry to disappoint you, but recently edited and/or deleted entries are beeing presented to every moderator in a regular list, and everyone eventually goes through it and checks stuff randomly.
and yes sure, asking what to do, and then when you get told that what you want to do doesnt comply with the rules you ignore that and do what you want anyway, and that repeatedly even after beeing told to stop - thats stupid enough. its also a good way to ensure that future edits/deletions will get checked more likely than before, btw =P
Quote:Problem is that CSDb in fact has become the main release site for C64 stuff although that is not its original and real purpose, a database.
yep, indeed. and as for that, i still like the idea of not adding anything to csdb that wasnt released elsewhere :)
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The Communist
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 485 |
Dear Deekay, this stupid nazi-comparisons annoy. Try to get help to get your nazi paranoia cured please. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
yay for csdb drama \o/
seriously though, a nice compromise would've been to edit the release title: "nufli-editor v1.11" would become "nufli-editor v1.11 (broken)", and then a goof explaining it.
also, if I search for a nufli editor, I will get multiple hits, including the latest and greatest version. I'd be a jackass if I didn't download the latest version.
csdb archives releases and once a release is released, it cant be unreleased. hence the rules on here.
groepaz is right in enforcing the rules, but the mods could at least work out a doable compromise, instead of just saying "NO! Rules are Rules!"
my 3 cents
edit: errrm, seems I didnt read the whole thread (yes really), you boys are just as smart as me lol |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1825 |
Pointless thread.
Release fail - plain and simple. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Yeah Crest fucked up and now its on the record. Man up and live with it.
PS : I want to see that demo about the bug. with gfx made in the buggy editor version !! HARHARHAR!
:-D |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2896 |
wares people vs. demo people
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
The solution is this:
1 single entry for a release, then:
<toolname> <version>
Obsolete versions:
tool v1.11
tool v1.0
tool v0.9
if tool 1.12 latest, get replaced by 1.13,
then 1.12 moves into the obsolete list.
now be a real moderator, and if the creator dont code the interface and modify and develop the site, then you do that, or get someone to.
a site that runs in 10 year old design, and has no maintainer, other than moderator, is a disfunctional site. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
to say it in the most proper way:
this problem, and many many others, is just a symptom of, that csdb is not being updated and developed, in tune with time and growing needs.
solution: make CSDB 2.0 |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 254 |
Quoting rambonessolution: make CSDB 2.0
Indeed. When you've finished it, be sure to let us know.
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The Communist
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 485 |
Rambones: Do you take the time to read everything in this thread ? I don think so. Otherwise you would have found the remarks of Celtic which say: "Due to some personal issues perff wont be back for a while, but when he does i will ask him about versioning :)" |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quoting Burglaryay for csdb drama o/
seriously though, a nice compromise would've been to edit the release title: "nufli-editor v1.11" would become "nufli-editor v1.11 (broken)", and then a goof explaining it.
Well, like said, changing the Title (so people don't find it anymore) was the first thing I tried. It got reversed without any comment - even though there's no rule saying you can't edit the title to your heart's content! Now I've added "broken" to it, which seems to be okay. I've even told Groepaz that I'll be changing the title since there's no rule against that, but it got reversed anyway... One *could've* mailed/talked to me to work out what kind of renaming would be considered appropriate (remember: there IS no rule!), but it's pretty obvious that de-escalation or finding an actual compromise was never even on the menu in this whole matter... I don't know how often I've tried to work something out on IRC, all to no avail...
Quote:also, if I search for a nufli editor, I will get multiple hits, including the latest and greatest version. I'd be a jackass if I didn't download the latest version.
Well, f.ex. I don't like the new versions of the Faces Font Editor made.. I want the original thing, cause that's what I'm used to! Also, like mrsid pointed out, the old one has a higher rating! ;-)
P.S: Looky what I found in the rules (7.1, which deals with replacing files!) when I searched for rules about changing release names: "(this rule does not apply to replacing broken files with working ones, obviously we hope)" 8)))
P.P.S: Communist, please google "GröFaZ", i beg you! <:-) So much for "Nazi paranoia"! ;-D *I* only went with it!.... |
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The Communist
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 485 |
Dekan, I trink I was clear. It is not the question whar Gröfaz means but that you compare Groepaz with Adolf Hitler and his fascist regime. So you offend him. Stop it. Be factual.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Quote:It got reversed without any comment - even though there's no rule saying you can't edit the title to your heart's content!
now why dont you also tell HOW you renamed the entry, and explain how it wasnt a completely stupid idea to do it like this? and yes, if something is SO obviously not how it should be, it would often silently get corrected.
Quote:"(this rule does not apply to replacing broken files with working ones, obviously we hope)"
also look up what the rules tell about the hypothetical case that you dont understand the rules.
for this matter, this rule applies to files which also qualify as beeing marked corrupted - ie actually broken files, not releases someone fucked up. |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 273 |
lol, now we end up in a na-zi discussion, great... <eating popcorn and sits down to expect more>
maybe alien mindbenders are around?
there have been several really constructive ideas here, let them come true and stop nagging like wikipedia-idiots |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quoting GroepazQuote:It got reversed without any comment - even though there's no rule saying you can't edit the title to your heart's content!
now why dont you also tell HOW you renamed the entry, and explain how it wasnt a completely stupid idea to do it like this? and yes, if something is SO obviously not how it should be, it would often silently get corrected.
Dude, learn to read before telling others what to do:
Quoting DeeKay
but whatever I suggested and did (renaming it to "Buggy-ed" so people wouldn't find it, using the "this file is corrupted" feature in the file dialogue)
Quote:Quote:"(this rule does not apply to replacing broken files with working ones, obviously we hope)"
also look up what the rules tell about the hypothetical case that you dont understand the rules.
for this matter, this rule applies to files which also qualify as beeing marked corrupted - ie actually broken files, not releases someone fucked up.
Aha, that's good to know... Maybe you should actually write that then, cause for simpletons like me this sentence is rather obvious: A broken file is one that doesn't work and a working one is one that does. It's really that simple out here in non-collector's-land!...
Communist: I'm offending him??? Gee, I had no idea!!!! OMG!... Thanks for warning me! |
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The Communist
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 485 |
Yes, I am a kind guy. Now you can't say you didn't know. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
This is just stupid. Every site has rules made to follow. Whether you like them or not doesn't really matter. If you're going to use the site, follow the rules. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
I think the rules are for us, and not we are for the rules. I guess this issue could've been solved in 3 minutes, if Groepaz would have been a bit more constructive. |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quoting ZyronThis is just stupid. Every site has rules made to follow. Whether you like them or not doesn't really matter. If you're going to use the site, follow the rules.
Dude, like said before: There are neither rules for re-naming entries nor *specific* rules as to what the "file is corrupt" feature (and the respective part in the rules!) are for!
If you're gonna be anal about the rules, so be it, but then you need to make sure they spell out EVERYTHING in detail before accusing people of not following them!
And if the rules aren't clear on some matter or there are no rules, is a little cooperation and dialogue really too much to ask for? |
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The Communist
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 485 |
Oswald: Yes, you are right, the rules are for the users, for whom else ? |
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Marauder/GSS
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 224 |
small things can lead to big dramas here, that's why I love CSDb... (c:
Actually I think renaming the title to "xxx (broken)" and using production-notes/goof to give a hint about the bug is a good solution, though maybe "(buggy)" would be better as "(broken)". IMO a broken/corrupt file is a file that does not run (due to missing or corrupt file/s), where a bugged version is still running having some bugs in functionality.
Also versioning is not the solution as rambones stated a few posts before. Is this sourceforge here? How many releases out of the +90.000 do really need versioning? Can I add work-stages for a demo then as well? like demo v0.9, demo v.95, demo v1.0, demo v1.1?
Anyway, sometimes I wish the moderators would deal such cases a bit more "friendly" so that both sides are happy, the moderators and the users... I mean we are all a 64 family here, aren't we?
so let's do a group hug... Mermaid where are u?! :D
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
General reflection on the topic:
You can't always have things the way you want them, and while sometimes coming off as something like an elitist asshole I think Groepaz is doing a great job keeping this site in order, as do the less vocal mods of course. (And also, elitist assholery in the scene? Say it aint so!)
In general I'd say finding a way to achieve something resembling what you want to do within the scope of the rules is the way to go, instead of just ignoring the rules you don't like because your cause is all too just and important for rules to stand in the way. Work with the mods, not against them, even if they're grumpy - they run the site, not you. |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quoting radiantxGeneral reflection on the topic:
You can't always have things the way you want them, and while sometimes coming off as something like an elitist asshole I think Groepaz is doing a great job keeping this site in order, as do the less vocal mods of course.
Agreed... Still, they should try to work with their users, not against them! And I definately had this feeling when dealing with Gpz this time...
I was never on the US boards, but from what I've heard I seriously don't want CSDb to adopt such a flamewarring elitist culture...
Quote:In general I'd say finding a way to achieve something resembling what you want to do within the scope of the rules is the way to go, instead of just ignoring the rules you don't like because your cause is all too just and important for rules to stand in the way. Work with the mods, not against them, even if they're grumpy - they run the site, not you.
I sure hope you're not talking about my case! <:-) Otherwise I'd be really wondering why I actually bother to post what happened...
And as for "they run the site, not you": I disagree. That's the same reasoning with Party Orgas: They need users just as much as users need them! It's a symbiosis, so let's just treat it that way, okay?
CSDb without *users* adding and maintaining entries would not be CSDb!... So let's just try to work together as best we can! ;-) |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
I guess the name change in v1.11 solves this drama? =)
btw. two Crest dramas per year. A world first? \o/ |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
There's always a way around the rules, especially irl. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2896 |
Quoting DeeKayI was never on the US boards
This explains why you don't understand this rule. Once you release something you can't take it back, even more so with the internet now. I do understand not wanting something floating around that is going to cause issues, but everyone makes mistakes/errors, nothing to be afraid of. ;)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Quote:Agreed... Still, they should try to work with their users, not against them! And I definately had this feeling when dealing with Gpz this time...
sorry, but if someone asks me how to do something, gets told it cant be done, and then he still turns around and does it, twice even - then i quickly switch to nazimoderator mode (and not just me), because i get the feeling someone is not only not listening, but also dileberately ignoring what has been said. and that part of the message you managed to get across quite well this time =P
Quote:I was never on the US boards, but from what I've heard I seriously don't want CSDb to adopt such a flamewarring elitist culture...
oh come on... that coming from the guy who writes "actually enjoys flame wars" into his profile?
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TWW
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 541 |
What's NUFLI? |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1825 |
Damn, ran out of popcorn!
Pls continue whining - will check when back from the mall.
"enjoys flamewars"
rotfl
without ever experiencing serious heat
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The Communist
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 485 |
Where is Hartmut ? |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quoting MolochQuoting DeeKayI was never on the US boards
This explains why you don't understand this rule. Once you release something you can't take it back, even more so with the internet now. I do understand not wanting something floating around that is going to cause issues, but everyone makes mistakes/errors, nothing to be afraid of. ;)
Dude, that part has always been clear, I never wanted to "take it back". All I ever asked for was a way to clearly warn people that they're downloading a br0ken file! |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quoting GroepazQuote:Agreed... Still, they should try to work with their users, not against them! And I definately had this feeling when dealing with Gpz this time...
sorry, but if someone asks me how to do something, gets told it cant be done, and then he still turns around and does it, twice even - then i quickly switch to nazimoderator mode (and not just me), because i get the feeling someone is not only not listening, but also dileberately ignoring what has been said. and that part of the message you managed to get across quite well this time =P
Again: There is NOTHING in the rules about how to properly use the "file corrupted" feature, just like it doesn't say anything on how exactly you're allowed to change the entry name. So why should I be violating a rule that is not written? Besides: I've only found out about this feature when someone else used it *exactly* the same way without any trouble some weeks back, to mark a broken version that he uploaded by mistake!
If there's no rule about it and you still keep shooting down anything I try, what other conclusion can i draw from this than that you're obviously trying to piss me off on purpose?
The solution we have now, adding "broken" to the name, repackaging it into a zip that clearly tells users that it's broken, could've been found weeks ago already if you were actually trying to work with me...
Quote:Quote:I was never on the US boards, but from what I've heard I seriously don't want CSDb to adopt such a flamewarring elitist culture...
oh come on... that coming from the guy who writes "actually enjoys flame wars" into his profile?
Yeah.. The fun flamewars (think: debate club!), not the ragwar kind! ;-) |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
Quote:Again: There is NOTHING in the rules about how to properly use the "file corrupted" feature
CSDB rules doesn't need to explain the meaning of every english word used on the site.
The whole debate it's because of your misuse or misunderstanding of the term "broken".
It's not broken, it's BUGGED. Like every existing program, it has very likely some bugs, somewhere. Fix the bugs, increase version, release new version.
Really it's just a matter of basic knowledge and usage of a minimum of common sense.
Quote:I've only found out about this feature when someone else used it *exactly* the same way without any trouble some weeks back, to mark a broken version that he uploaded by mistake!
Care to link some? If they are marked corrupted and they aren't, they should be unmarked aswell.
If someone makes errors, it doesn't mean you can do the same. Errors must be fixed. If everyone could do whatever they want this place would be a mess in 2 days or less. |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quoting iAN CooGQuote:Again: There is NOTHING in the rules about how to properly use the "file corrupted" feature
CSDB rules doesn't need to explain the meaning of every english word used on the site.
The whole debate it's because of your misuse or misunderstanding of the term "broken".
It's not broken, it's BUGGED. Like every existing program, it has very likely some bugs, somewhere. Fix the bugs, increase version, release new version.
Really it's just a matter of basic knowledge and usage of a minimum of common sense.
Aha, and this semantical difference in a CSDb admin's mind between "bugged" and "broken" needs to be guessed? btw: where does "corrupted" fit in to the whole equation?
Sorry, but "a minimum of common sense" is complete BS. HOW the fuck is *anyone* supposed to know what exactly *you* define as "broken"? Write in the damn file dialogue "corrupted means this copy has an error, to try to look for a working one" and everything's clear. Until that's the case, "broken" means to every normal thinking person NOT WORKING!
Remember that not everyone lives in collector's world, where this actually might be "obvious"...
Quote:Quote:I've only found out about this feature when someone else used it *exactly* the same way without any trouble some weeks back, to mark a broken version that he uploaded by mistake!
Care to link some? If they are marked corrupted and they aren't, they should be unmarked aswell.
Can't remember the name, sorry.. some new release, the guy said he'll build and add a working copy soonish...
Quote:If someone makes errors, it doesn't mean you can do the same.
For that, I would have to know that it actually *was* an error. Still doesn't say so anywhere in the rules, sorry to burst your bubble!
Like said way before: If you're gonna be super-anal about the rules, you should damn well spell them out!
Quote:Errors must be fixed. If everyone could do whatever they want this place would be a mess in 2 days or less.
Phew, talking about pulling things out of proportion... Remember kids: If you tag files wrongly as corrupted, there'll be pestilence and fire will rain from the sky! The dark lord Cthulu will come from another dimension and ravish your wives and kids! |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
I'm already here for some years, with breaks inbetween. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Nyäh! |
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Sixx
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 229 |
Fuck the german scene.
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The Overkiller
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 342 |
Quoting DeeKay The dark lord Cthulu will come from another dimension and ravish your wives and kids!
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
cant wait for the appearance of mint-berry crunch and mysterion:) |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
MINTBERRY CRRRRRUNCH!!!!!
P.S: Anyone noticed the great Totoro-Hommage with Cartman and Chthuhuhhuhluh (or however it's spelled)? 8) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
I guess its time
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
I guess everyone will know by now that you shouldn't use this version of the editor. :) |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
Why? Is it br0ken? |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: Why? Is it br0ken?
Not broken, but bugs. Big difference. :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Quote:Again: There is NOTHING in the rules about how to properly use the "file corrupted" feature whinewhinewhinewhine
again: you asked wether you can rename the entry to "Buggy Editor". i seriously dont know why, because my answer should have been clear. you then renamed the entry anyway. and ofcourse that was reverted. then you appearently didnt really get the message and tried the same another time. OOOPS, and you put the moderator into nazi mode at the same time with great success. you only ever came up with that weird idea of marking the file corrupted after that, and again simply ignored what has been told to you. sorry, but this is NOT how you work out a solution, and you really shouldnt whine now that no solution emerged from this.
Quote:Yeah.. The fun flamewars (think: debate club!), not the ragwar kind! ;-)
LOOOOL. hahahaha. ok. so infact, you enjoy debating with 5 year old girls about the mental health of their puppets, not _actual_ flamewars =) if you cant make that clear, why dont you spell it out ?!
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
This is exactly why I decided to avoid this site. Certain admins have far too much power here and what was once a fun place where people met and shared their thoughts and/or stuff, became a tyrranical Ministry of Dos and Don'ts with the all-round domination of a few chosen ones.
Well fuck you, that's all I have to say. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116 |
Quote:Certain admins have far too much power here
almost all relevant things must be confirmed by at least 3 moderators, btw. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Oh, wow, you're still discussing this! |
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Devia
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401 |
so.. why is it still named "(broken)"?
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
We, the moderators, are ok with the filename being used to show the file is not ok, this time. And we hope to add a trivia field in the future which would reflect these thing better in the entry.
By this we hope Deekay and all other users are happy, and therefor conclude this debate from our side.
CSDB Staff. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
A moderator topic would be nice where users and mods would discuss issues in an open way. The way things are now, is bad. There's almost no communication and no feedback. Mods seem to be masters of black magic, an open enviroment would be nice IMHO. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1825 |
Oswald: just be as annoying, persisting and brainbugged as Deekay and you get your entries reverted, muxed up or can finally add/inside/the/archive/an/award/winning/message/to/the/directory/structure/to/po int/out/your/fuckup/a/little/better as well :)
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Devia
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401 |
Thank you Celtic.
...maybe the Trivia field could even be used as the Trivia field... nah... let's not go there.
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quoting GroepazQuote:Again: There is NOTHING in the rules about how to properly use the "file corrupted" feature whinewhinewhinewhine
again: you asked wether you can rename the entry to "Buggy Editor". i seriously dont know why, because my answer should have been clear.
Hmm, then your memory serves you wrong. Cause your answer was anything but "clear". You obviously couldn't find any rule that objected to that and could just muster a meek "it's probably gonna get reverted"...
Quote:you then renamed the entry anyway. and ofcourse that was reverted. then you appearently didnt really get the message and tried the same another time.
Again, your memory serves you wrong. I renamed it only once...
Quote:OOOPS, and you put the moderator into nazi mode at the same time with great success.
Ohhh.... poor you! <:-) As if you hadn't been in Nazi mode right from the start! Are you actually denying that you did simply NOT try to find a compromise and weren't willing to help me out AT ALL?
If you actually claim that, i dare you to tell me what "solution" you offered me....
Saying "sorry" is obviously not even an option for you - EVER! I've known you for ages now and never ever remember you were willing to concede ANYTHING...
Quote:you only ever came up with that weird idea of marking the file corrupted after that, and again simply ignored what has been told to you.
"what has been told to you"... Thank you, the verbiage alone is perfect proof of your stuck-up authoritarian approach on the whole matter! 8)
Quote:sorry, but this is NOT how you work out a solution, and you really shouldnt whine now that no solution emerged from this.
Bullshit. "Oh, I'm the victim", bla bla bla. How often have I asked you just HOW i should solve this problem and asked you for help? It was this thread that helped fix the problem, if I had gone on merely asking you for help I could've waited until kingdom come to actually reach a solution...
Quote:Quote:Yeah.. The fun flamewars (think: debate club!), not the ragwar kind! ;-)
LOOOOL. hahahaha. ok. so infact, you enjoy debating with 5 year old girls about the mental health of their puppets, not _actual_ flamewars =) if you cant make that clear, why dont you spell it out ?!
Yeah, you do know the real man's flamewars, do you? 8) What a nice admin you are...
P.S: Yeah, fuck you to, C0! <:-) I really wonder what I have ever done to you... |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Celtic: I'm perfectly fine with how it is now, thanks! ;-) But it would be good for the future and would help avoid pointless arguments like this if admins were actively instructed to work with the users, not against them! <:-)
After all this great site is made by both parties, and we all profit from it, so what's the point of infighting? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
It would help the most if Groepaz would stop being a moderator. He continously shits into the fan. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Groepaz, you should really reconsider your keeper-of-the-holy-grail attitude and your authoritary approach to these matters. From an admin to a site like this I expect a little more diplomatic skills. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2896 |
I'm trying to understand why some people, generally the people that have problems with the rules or cry the most when they don't get their way, seem to think this website should be "open" and "we require more feedback and moderators should have less control", etc. etc.
If CSDb did change to this limp-wrist pansy manner of handling things nothing would get done here. We'd have public votes on everything (deadlock), all the crybabies would need a constant supply of clean diapers w/rash ointment, etc.
These rules aren't changing and I doubt Groepaz is going anywhere as moderator. He is doing a fine job -- far better than lots of moderators before him. It's clear some people here require kid-gloves, maybe the moderators should bring in a special "baby patrol" group of moderators who can specifically deal with these little girlie-men babies. |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: I'm trying to understand why some people, generally the people that have problems with the rules or cry the most when they don't get their way, seem to think this website should be "open" and "we require more feedback and moderators should have less control", etc. etc.
If CSDb did change to this limp-wrist pansy manner of handling things nothing would get done here. We'd have public votes on everything (deadlock), all the crybabies would need a constant supply of clean diapers w/rash ointment, etc.
These rules aren't changing and I doubt Groepaz is going anywhere as moderator. He is doing a fine job -- far better than lots of moderators before him. It's clear some people here require kid-gloves, maybe the moderators should bring in a special "baby patrol" group of moderators who can specifically deal with these little girlie-men babies.
Rules are ok, you missed the point.
It's about communication with the mod. An angry grumpy mod it seems. |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
@DeeKay. I'd be ashamed aswell if the SDI music editor would fill the memory with garbage, or formatting the disk image instead of loading. I feel with you. It should though, be marked as bugged, not broken. The file itself still works. Corrupted file tag is about a none working image or prg file, physically, and not bugs in the code.
Guys, learn to communicate. A company filled with C64 sceners would look rather funny, with Groepaz as the CEO. Hahaha, fail! |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 254 |
He would pwn as the company accountant, though.
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Oswald, please don't be ridiculous. I know we've had our differences, but Groepaz does a *shitload* of important behind-the-scenes work for the scene (not just here, also as party orga!) so calling for his ban as an adminstrator is extremely counterproductive for us all and definately NOT the purpose of this thread!
All I want is better cooperation between admins and users and a less authoritarian approach on things (rules-analness just for the sake of it instead of cooperation). Groepaz himself is pretty anti-authoritarian in anything but scene matters, so I just wish that he realizes he's become quite a bit of that which he had always despised otherwise! ;-)
And just to state something once more, because I feel people accuse me of something wrong: I'm *not* someone who thinks "the rules don't apply to him", if I was I wouldn't have asked Groepaz for help on how to solve this problem in compliance with the rules first of all, would I? |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I second what DK said about Groepaz.
Difficult character? Yes, but who isnt.
Bad moderator ? No, not in my book. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
My opinion is based not only on this event there's a pattern you should have noticed. Anyway I dont want to get into this. |
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Sixx
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 229 |
What Moloch said.
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
To make one thing clear, besides all my steam-venting and admin-bashing: On the whole I appreciate the work being done in the background by the admin crew, Groepaz included. |
