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2023-12-05 11:22

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4618

Release id #237341 : Future Ninja

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 5 December 2023
Frostbyte: I think it was that it ended up as #3 in a compo and also was the #1 pic on csdb for a while. People also cheered for it on fb etc. ”Amazing”, ”outstanding”, etc. Then artists react I’d say.

User Comment
Submitted by Moloch [PM] on 5 December 2023
10!

User Comment
Submitted by Frostbyte [PM] on 5 December 2023
Whereas I think it is great that this picture finally sparked a serious conversation about possibly clarifying the scene's unwritten rulebook what comes to declaring use of sources and converters and providing workstages, I do get Oswald's point, D-Mage may just not know about the unwritten rules.

What I find a bit strange is that THIS particular image sparked the conversation, as there are many well established, praised talents in the scene who so blatantly obviously use online sources for their images as well as very heavily rely on advanced converters, and never provide workstages, but with them most of the scene remains silent. Maybe it's about which group you're in? ;)

User Comment
Submitted by Bob [PM] on 5 December 2023
I am not an artist.. but I can't help it.. I like this image.. and it would do great in a demo too...

User Comment
Submitted by rexbeng [PM] on 5 December 2023
Most artists wouldn't care about AI; it's just another tool added to the plethora of tools that over the years made the random pics we are used to look at, be less and less 'art'. If it's just 'joes' you're after with your creations, say on youtube, why spent hundreds of hours to make a video about something specific that interests you, when a random video with cats will generate a hell of a lot more appreciation and views and need just a fraction of the time to make? Would an artist opt to make videos with more of the same cats for Youtube?

Work stages is a joke when the talk is about digital images, I trust anybody can understand that. :)

User Comment
Submitted by Carrion [PM] on 5 December 2023
6 months ago at X'23 I was giving the presentation about my process of creating C64 images. I showed how I use Photoshop to cut and paste pieces of images (found on Internet) to produce some quick results that I later take to Timanthes for long process of detailing. Also a big part of my presentation was my thoughts on using AI and how it is a huge temptation on using it as a shortcut to create C64 gfx, and how I feel tempted to use it (and I probably will).
What I stated back then was that every time I use AI I will inform about it in release notes or CSDB comments. I also declared that I will include workstages and/or the source .psd files and references if used.

The feedback after my presentation was very good and together with few pixel-artists we had really interesting conversation after it.
And... 6 months later... nothing happened.

Partially my fault because a) I wasn't that active this year, b) the images I created for CD demos haven't used AI and but...
c) seams to me that majority of people don't really care about AI and workstages and source files.
Or do they? Do you care?

So... IMO this conversation we have here is a great opportunity to maybe start a new "tradition" to share the references, AI prompts/models used, .psd files, workstages etc to make it fully transparent. I also strongly believe that this will be also a great way to share knowledge, learn, and have even more fun.
What you say? Who's with me?

One more thing regarding this and similar converted pics. It worries me same way as Hein, The Sarge, and others already said, but hey, let people do what gives them fun of using C64. Is it converting, pixeling, wireing. Scene will judge anyway.

User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 5 December 2023
Perhaps y'all remember what I was saying here when I was told I was being a drama queen.
https://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=12&topicid=158776&showallposts=1
Just sayin...

User Comment
Submitted by Wile Coyote [PM] on 5 December 2023
@The Sarge 'Maybe he did all by himself?'

Lol! ..absolutely not.

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 5 December 2023
For me it’s about honesty. Do what you like, AI or not, but when you are competing in a compo: hell no. It’s also obvious to me that most joes (Sorry Joe) can’t tell a convert from original work, which must be frustrating for most artists.

Using converted AI instead of converting a googled pic also makes the source impossible to find, which adds to the frustration. Even work stages could be forged ofc, working backwards. I am sure that already happened somewhere. It’s sad all of it.

User Comment
Submitted by The Sarge [PM] on 5 December 2023
I think it would be great if D-Mage could step in and add to the conversation. That would maybe stop the speculation of how this was made. Maybe he did all by himself? But until he doesn’t we will not know.

Looking at the image it’s obvious for me it’s converted. You see it in the mathematical dithering that is all over the image. For some reason the author decided to enhance the eyebrows so those are most surely hand pixeled but the rest of the image is probably not.
IF D-mage made this image from scratch by himself, ie painted the original on another medium and then used a converter to make it appear on the C64 then it’s fine. It’s still not hand pixeled but he is the author of the art. It’s just that the conversion itself takes away a bit of the “magic” of the pixel art. And it sure is a shortcut.

And this is what it all boils down to, shortcuts.
If you use AI or someone else art then it is a major shortcut. It’s such a big shortcut that you can’t really compare this to art that is done by someone by hand, from a life long period of training the mind and hand to realise your vision and ideas. It takes a lot of effort making those hand made pixel art that people will hopefully remember and appreciate. For me it’s up to 40-50 hours per image and maybe a week or two trying to come up with an idea that I think would work. Before that its has been a life full of failed attempts. The life of an artist, being it code, music or visuals. It’s all the same. We try, we fail, we fail better. Then comes AI and converting and cuts all this down to 10 minutes of work.
Of course we get upset, sad and worried.

For me C64 art is where my cradle was and hopefully it will be with me until I die. So I hate to see it devolve into soulless AI art.

So please be careful in your judgment of images.

User Comment
Submitted by Hate Bush [PM] on 5 December 2023
if it's done by the supposed creator AND converted by AI - then finished by hand - i see no problem with this.
i don't ask if a musician tapped the tune into tracker (which would be correct, true, scene-wise and so on) or did the whole tune in DAW as MIDI and then imported into tracker of choice (which would be... spitting on those who swear by first option?)

User Comment
Submitted by Hein [PM] on 5 December 2023
I really hope AI conversions don't become the norm in graphics competitions. I can't keep up with that. :) Anyhow, as a motive this isn't that exciting either.

User Comment
Submitted by Flex [PM] on 5 December 2023
I think people are worried. It's been in the air for some time now and in general, converts / AI at this level brings up big questions about the future.
Still, myself not even being the "spokesman" on this (emotional) topic I'm after some more transparency and if there's any spit on this work, that's only there for the method and the end result being this good. This might be hard to accept and I pretty much understand from the point of true craftsmanship.

User Comment
Submitted by chatGPZ [PM] on 5 December 2023
I'd rather see a decent convert than another half-assed "hand pixelled" image.

What *really* stinks are those half-assed converts that don't even look good.

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 5 December 2023
if your work is spit on, then you wouldnt feel anything personally ?

User Comment
Submitted by Flex [PM] on 4 December 2023
@oswald, I see nothing personal here. I'm hoping this launched compo will work as an eye-opener for the scene as it seems to me now that conversion / AI business is starting to gain too much ground.
I think converting is ok but trying to make people believe something else is not.
As a multicolour picture this one is ace.

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 4 December 2023
this is d-mage's first pic after 30 years, probably he is not familiar with the current unwritten rules in the scene, maybe more patience would have been better instead of making laughing stock of him in the form of a compo.

... 57 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2023-12-07 01:24

F7sus4

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 112

Quote:

Most artists wouldn't care about AI; it's just another tool added to the plethora of tools that over the years made the random pics we are used to look at, be less and less 'art'.

Does the evolution of tools tend to minimize user input while leaning towards task automation? In many cases, yes.

Is the composer using a modern synthesizer in 100% the author of the final effect, or is it a compromise between his input and a prefabricated technological component that is able to produce sounds on its own, which he only modifies or adjusts according to his needs?

In the late 90s, using Photoshop was considered "lame" because of brushes, blur, and other effects that demoscene artists had previously created by hand, pixel by pixel. Ultimately, Photoshop became an established standard as everyone accepted the inevitable change mentally. It was a process, but the same argument was made - that it was no longer a "skill" but a tool doing the job ~~for~~ instead of the artist.

The question is, is AI an enemy of creativity or a tool that could ultimately be included in the general artistic consensus as a form of automation? If so, aren't we currently facing a 2023 iteration of "No Copy/No Photoshop" dilemma? If not, where to set the line between the author's own creative force and his (ab)use of available technology? How much input does it take for a piece to be considered "your own"? And who's to decide?

2023-12-07 05:10

Hate Bush

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 456

we're deliberately obsolete anyway, we may as well go full stone age: perhaps it's time for serious live compos at parties. have a blank project and create from there, in front of the audience. let's say two hours for musicians, four for graphicians, external tools not allowed, outputs on bigscreen next to each other, Saturday until 18:00.
(far-fetching your ass XD)
that would be as clear as it gets - with lack of masterpieces (to say it mildly) as the only downside. but if it's all about pixel-pushing and register-altering skills, such lack shouldn't mean much.

2023-12-07 07:50

Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 501

Quoting F7sus4

Quote:

In the late 90s, using Photoshop was considered "lame" because of brushes, blur, and other effects that demoscene artists had previously created by hand, pixel by pixel. Ultimately, Photoshop became an established standard as everyone accepted the inevitable change mentally. It was a process, but the same argument was made - that it was no longer a "skill" but a tool doing the job ~~for~~ instead of the artist.

I think this compares very different things. As for coding, Macroassemblers made life easier by introducing macros, labels, code could be compiled to targets that could be freely moved around. Nowadays also crossassemblers compile on different machines. That is what one has nowadays for coding and still it consumes vast amounts of time and needs pretty much skills to get the best out of it. Lately out of fun i asked an AI about a code snippet and what could be optimized. It returned utter crap as a solution that would nopt even work and it tried to convince me that it is a bad idea to use illegal opcodes.
As for GFX tools on a PC enable me to make use of fine mouse movements compared to joystick back in the days and maybe a few brushes with dither patterns to get rid of tedious repetetive work. Still i need a vast amount of time to ponder about a motif, to sketch, to fill, to arrange, to rearrange, burst out in hate multiple times due to the harsh restrictions and trying to stick to some kind of blocky scheme. For my case i'd say it is more than 100 hours per pic and yes, i am slow. Therefore there's graphicians where you can tell from the pic without a tag, who's the author.
So what would be the correct comparision is, that an AI would give me a readymade demo effect as an .asm file, so it does with GFX and that is nothing i consider creative or technically skilled.
There's no reason to find excuses for producing mass-shit.
What i also hate is, how some of the worksteps look like, basically i sometimes see pictures that start with a gray empty screen and over the four worksteps a perfectly done picture is painted in 4 portions, no single pixel changed in the previous sections, no rearrangement happening over the whole process. Bah, i could rant on for hours.....

2023-12-07 08:21

Electric

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 39

@Bitbreaker You're absolutely right about the gfx worksteps – this should be paid much more attention to and for party orgs (like us in ZOO) this is something to focus on.

There should definitely be more time used for examining the stages. Also the rules should be written very clearly on WHAT the stages should present. With ZOO we're stating that: "Make the workstages so that they truly present the creation of the image from blank screen to the final stage." – we've required 5 steps but with '24 edition we'll most probably ask for more (10) due the current AI / conversion -gate.

I've only watched Revision compos like twice and was laughing with the shown workstages – it was merely just a joke as one could see complete characters, backgrounds or objects pop up fully pixeled out of nowhere. This same thing seems to happen with most parties.

The problem is as well that most of the compo artists do not share the workstages and they are only stocked in the party org archives. Those should be made public for people to judge and debate as well.

There's definitely a lot we can do better here.

2023-12-07 10:34

rexbeng

Registered: Aug 2012
Posts: 30

Quoting F7sus4

Quote:

The question is, is AI an enemy of creativity or a tool that could ultimately be included in the general artistic consensus as a form of automation?

I strongly believe it is not an enemy. A form of automation, sure. But since there may be dozens of technical steps in one's creative process, the methods to skip laborious tasks are welcome. The artist should have the ability to spend his time focusing on his vision instead of grinding sea cells and mixing with yolk to create his own paint goo.

In fact this dilemma could take us as far back as mid 19th century.

2023-12-07 11:33

Electric

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 39

Agree with rexbeng. I think what AI will do for art is indeed that it'll merely tell us what art is about. It will make the artists more focused on what they are doing. I wrote in these various discussions that the processes of illustrators and artists have already been very much alike methods of AI. Therefore I'm not really worrying all this 'googled stolen from here, stolen from there' -work will be replaced by AI. Workwise this will mean many loosing their jobs (which it already has partly done) but that concerns mainly the bulky stuff that did have nothing but 'decorative' value anyways. Artistic values are somewhere else. AI will definitely debate with those as well but in the end it will up to ppl's values what to respect.

2023-12-07 12:20

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 119

Quote:

The question is, is AI an enemy of creativity or a tool that could ultimately be included in the general artistic consensus as a form of automation?

I believe it's an enemy of the worst, most devious kind. I think this "democratization" is going to result in us all getting a lot more "Big Brother" and a lot less "Monty Python". And it's not Photoshop on steroids because Photoshop does not include all art ever made packed into it. Plus it's ecologically unsound. Why would we substitute a guy sporting a pencil with a guy sporting MS render farm to do (from what I've seen) the same work? Or even worse, inferior work? Plus it's been pushed onto the world from above by tech bros that don't care about or understand art. I fail to see it as just another linear step in a long succession since "grinding of sea shells".

2023-12-07 12:51

rexbeng

Registered: Aug 2012
Posts: 30

"What art is about". I could not have put it in better and simpler words.

Drawing a beautiful face is the easier thing in the world. The rules have been set 2.5k years ago and remain the same. Anyone with the ability to understand geometry, hold a ruler and a pencil and have the patience to learn how to draw strokes can make the portrait of a beautiful face. If you go further to replace 'ruler/pencil' with Photoshop, the process is even easier (and you can place ready-made effects over it to make it more 'wow'). Today, 'pure Photoshop' is replaced by AI. Which even further proves that anyone can make a beautiful face (but not hands :P).

Taking that face and making art out of it, though, is a whole different story, and league.

2023-12-08 20:21

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11148

Quote:

but not hands :P

AHAHAHAHA. I still have a bunch of papers with hands i drew at school. Hilarious :D

And +1 for jury at compos. Get rid of public voting alltogether. I seriously loved this at X back in the days.

2023-12-08 21:08

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5029

Quote: Quote:
but not hands :P

AHAHAHAHA. I still have a bunch of papers with hands i drew at school. Hilarious :D

And +1 for jury at compos. Get rid of public voting alltogether. I seriously loved this at X back in the days.

yeah it was fun when clarence's 2 sided trackmo came behind a 1 filer, because jury :)

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