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Knight Rider
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 116 |
Event id #3294 : X-2024
I was having a discussion with a few guys over beers in X'2023 and the compos. I was telling about my days as OR8 pilot in the RC world where we had junior, hobby and pro categories for the races.
To make it abit more motivational the people/groups who aren't 20 members strong each with 30+ years of demo coding experience it might be worth while considering other options ?
eg. some of the ideas we discussed:
. Having a pro (ie previous winner category) and hobby section so that contributors are compared to peers of similar experience
. Splitting the voting/ranking for 1 filers from multi disk entries
. Newcomer award for those individuals or teams who never submitted to X before |
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Bitbreaker
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 501 |
Demos with 20 people involved may look like throwing a lot of personell at a project at a first glance, but often it is a core team of a few members who do the main work and a lot of others who do smaller contributions (which are not less important of course!). And i understand the point of not drowning in a quite filled dmeo-compo, i can imagine that this would lower the motivation when it happens all over and over again. 4k in my view had potential for more entries, there were "only" 6. I'd also be fine with distinguishing between onefilers and whole/many disk demos. the smaller and newcomer entries have defenitely deserved as much attention as anything else. We all started small and i do not take it for given to play nowadays in the upper ranges. Growth is imporant and i would not want to cast shadow to make others get less sunlight. |
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Knight Rider
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 116 |
Now centaur2 will be rolling around again calling me the character from Monkey Island. There were 7 4KB INTRO entries. 2 crashed, so were disqualified. I spent the whole time moaning that the 4 other ones submitted weren't intros, but 4kb demos. I was told it's not CSDB rules that are applying here.
I told the guys that for next time I'll need to up the ante on my abilities or participate as a spectator only for X'2024 |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 505 |
Quoting Knight Riderweren't intros, but 4kb demos
Respectfully, 4kB intro is not an invention of C64 scene. Moreover, we are arguably the last platform to introduce it, so IMHO we should follow the definition and format that is long established. Meaning it is size-restricted as 40kB and 64kB intros but not in functional way connected to crack intros. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 505 |
Quoting BitbreakerDemos with 20 people involved may look like throwing a lot of personel at a project at a first glance
It was discussed many times already, I think it is common understanding that gun power is gun power, even if much more "facilitation" is needed in case of having 8 coders instead of 2 ;) But in the end I agree, there is probably not much that can be done with that in practice.
However, I think both the onefile compo and newcomer award is a very good idea, tested on other platforms and events. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
What? Another X in less than a year? That's amazing! And it's probably not time enough for a lot of new 20 people megaproductions. So this might be the time for smaller demos to shine.
However, if the demo-compo should be split up, I think it might be an idea to have a separate one for max one diskside. That way the small demos aren't compared to 4 diskside 15 mins gfx/animation orgies. |
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TWW
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 541 |
Quote: What? Another X in less than a year? That's amazing! And it's probably not time enough for a lot of new 20 people megaproductions. So this might be the time for smaller demos to shine.
However, if the demo-compo should be split up, I think it might be an idea to have a separate one for max one diskside. That way the small demos aren't compared to 4 diskside 15 mins gfx/animation orgies.
+1 |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4617 |
Respectfully I think annual X is a bad idea. Will drain other parties, and also less megamega prods will emerge. Also: May/June? :( I would prefer autumn again. But that might be just me, working within the School year (Same for Dane and so on) makes it impossible to attend during the most stressful time of the year. I would guess it's the same for a lot of guys with kids in school. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11148 |
I love the new date :) And i think that annual party actually makes the compos more "approachable" again. I'm also totally for a "one disk" limit (as it used to be) - even though it will probably boil down to that in practise anyhow :)
I also find the idea of a compo suited for beginners very interesting - but i find it extremely hard to come up with a suitable category (because obviously, any new category will also attract the pros). That said, i found the amount of compos just right :) It might be an idea to bring back a jury based award instead, ie let some of those "top guys" vote for their favourite "newcomer" production. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting wacekQuoting Knight Riderweren't intros, but 4kb demos
Respectfully, 4kB intro is not an invention of C64 scene. Moreover, we are arguably the last platform to introduce it, so IMHO we should follow the definition and format that is long established. Meaning it is size-restricted as 40kB and 64kB intros but not in functional way connected to crack intros. Everybody would immediately understand "4KB demo" to refer to restricted executable size with unrestricted memory footprint, while "4KB intro" is quite ambiguous since at least ICC rules (restricted memory footprint) have been invented on this platform.
Calling demos intros was a stupid idea from the start, too. :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting GroepazI also find the idea of a compo suited for beginners very interesting - but i find it extremely hard to come up with a suitable category (because obviously, any new category will also attract the pros). That said, i found the amount of compos just right :) It might be an idea to bring back a jury based award instead, ie let some of those "top guys" vote for their favourite "newcomer" production. Yes, extra "best newcomer" awards or similar are better than having separate compos.
But then again, IF you start making demos and all for the prizes and recognition, you better be prepared to work hard to rise to the top rather than being pampered with pity awards. :] |
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Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 424 |
Quote: Respectfully I think annual X is a bad idea. Will drain other parties, and also less megamega prods will emerge. Also: May/June? :( I would prefer autumn again. But that might be just me, working within the School year (Same for Dane and so on) makes it impossible to attend during the most stressful time of the year. I would guess it's the same for a lot of guys with kids in school.
Isn't Oct/Nov also in the school year, but with shittier weather? :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting Mr. SIDIsn't Oct/Nov also in the school year, but with shittier weather? :) Better conditions to be pretend-sick. =) |
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Knight Rider
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 116 |
Quoting KrillQuoting wacekQuoting Knight Riderweren't intros, but 4kb demos
Respectfully, 4kB intro is not an invention of C64 scene. Moreover, we are arguably the last platform to introduce it, so IMHO we should follow the definition and format that is long established. Meaning it is size-restricted as 40kB and 64kB intros but not in functional way connected to crack intros. Everybody would immediately understand "4KB demo" to refer to restricted executable size with unrestricted memory footprint, while "4KB intro" is quite ambiguous since at least ICC rules (restricted memory footprint) have been invented on this platform.
Calling demos intros was a stupid idea from the start, too. :)
I spoke to a few contacts and asked them why they weren't submitting anything. The excuses were not understandable to me, until I saw the entries of the others and thought oh shit, I shouldn't have bothered one trusted voice said to me... Mike yours was good, but theirs are better sorry.
Quoting Mr. SIDIsn't Oct/Nov also in the school year, but with shittier weather? :)
It's called X as it's in October ? Now we need to rename to V ? |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting Knight RiderI spoke to a few contacts and asked them why they weren't submitting anything. The excuses were not understandable to me, until I saw the entries of the others and thought oh shit, I shouldn't have bothered one trusted voice said to me... Mike yours was good, but theirs are better sorry. ICC is pretty much the only compo with actual 4K intros rather than demos.
And frankly, i'd hate to have a demo party screen logo+music+text things for an hour.
It's just too restrictive for an already restricted platform with already restricted-enough categories.
Quoting Knight RiderIt's called X as it's in October ? Now we need to rename to V ? With OCTober being the 10th month for some historical reason... Could just as well have called it "VIII" instead until recently. :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036 |
I wouldn't mind if one-file demo category returned. Rob Hubbard would approve (if I have read the comment that we are streaming demos from disc" right.) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting CreaMDI wouldn't mind if one-file demo category returned. Putting onefilers in the demo compo proper is alright.
I'd have preferred them to be marked prominently as onefilers, though. And to have an extra top 3 rather than a single award for the top onefiler. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036 |
Quote: Quoting CreaMDI wouldn't mind if one-file demo category returned. Putting onefilers in the demo compo proper is alright.
I'd have preferred them to be marked prominently as onefilers, though. And to have an extra top 3 rather than a single award for the top onefiler.
Or that. Simply compile the list of top 3 onefiles from the demo compo results. Good idea. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
I think nothing needs to change.
There will be more 4ks anyway with an annual format.
And I agree with Krill. One should not 'aim' to win a 2nd-class award. It's not like a product by pros wins automatically. And quite often pro = most amount of time invested. All fine for me here. And it was more clear this year than (maybe) ever before: super-pro doesn't mean first place. Or second. Or even third guaranteed!
About the date:
'Summer' edition was very cool this time weather wise!
Less crowded inside. More time/room for chats outside 24/7. More seeing someone at 10m distance and still reaching him/her within a finite amount of time.
But whatever format it ends up being, it's the people making the party and I have no doubts that it will rock hard (in a friendly, peaceful manner :) again!
PS: constructing sub-categories FROM main compos is cool, too. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2086 |
Quoting Bitbreaker... 4k in my view had potential for more entries, there were "only" 6. ...
Yeah, this is really something also more people without 900 years of added involved groupmates coding experience could have put effort into - even all by themselves with some good old coder gfx, including myself (guilty as charged, real life, other party org and lazy bastard).
Splitting it into 1st "expert" and 2nd "amateur" division, wait, isn't X also where you release to compete with the best? And if you end extremely worse than your expectations, you will either work on your skills or better focus on drinking next time - and release your hard drive trash at a smaller party, e.g. BCC :)
I'd support the 1-disk-limit to reduce the "streaming/showing animations from disk" effect. And also because I often (might be my taste) think - why the fuck didn't they leave out 3 parts and made it fit one 1 side. Flip Disk for only Credits or Greetings or right after the Loader to watch the rest feels just meh.
One-Filed versus Trackmo distinction would make most sense imho of all the suggestions. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
I wouldn’t change anything. We were a team of 11 people on No Bounds - and less on our core team.. but we like to fight with the big groups to be honest. It might mean we never break the top 3 at X, sure, but that’s fine.
We make demos that we enjoy to make, and that we enjoy to watch. For me, that’s codeporn.. I just don’t enjoy making these story demos - even if that seems to be where the C64 scene is headed. I like watching the story demos, sure, a couple of times at least… but it’s more the “how the f*** did they do that?” demos that I want to see - and those don’t need huge production teams. LFT made Lunatico himself, Sparta made Got Balls (but borrowing music of course)… so we can all do it. |
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Nith
Registered: Jan 2013
Posts: 15 |
Yeah, my understanding was, that stiff competition and upping your game while trying to reach the top is kind of the most important pillar the scene is built on, would be kind of lame to change that. Also what TheRyk said, X feels like the world championship, you need to be really good to win something.
On a side note: If you can't make it on your own, you can still try to improve your skills until one of the big groups will try to snatch you up ;) Works like in football I guess.
A newcomer award of some sorts would be kind of cool though |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 505 |
Just to clarify my understanding of "newcomer award" - take the best demo that was done by somebody young/debuting etc and reward it. Orgas could easily be the judges there.
Separate "newcomer" compo was never my idea, as it is not a good one ;) |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 505 |
Quoting KrillEverybody would immediately understand "4KB demo" to refer to restricted executable size with unrestricted memory footprint, while "4KB intro" is quite ambiguous since at least ICC rules (restricted memory footprint) have been invented on this platform.
Again, 4kB intro tradition is much older than ICC, for me that's not a valid argument. By the way, if you want to be such precise, that would also require renaming all other sizecoded intro categories, why there is no confusion if the 1kB intro is a crack intro or a 1kB restricted demo?
For me that's a really artificial issue, which should be replaced with more people contributing 4k's instead ;)
Quote:Calling demos intros was a stupid idea from the start, too. :)
Trackmos were originally "trackloaded demos", seems to me that is also not precise... |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting wacekQuoting KrillEverybody would immediately understand "4KB demo" to refer to restricted executable size with unrestricted memory footprint, while "4KB intro" is quite ambiguous since at least ICC rules (restricted memory footprint) have been invented on this platform.
Again, 4kB intro tradition is much older than ICC, for me that's not a valid argument. Tradition is made to be broken. That term may originate from some other platform's sub-scene, but calling the things what they are while reducing ambiguity, at a C-64 only party, no less... Well, let's just agree to disagree.
Quoting wacekBy the way, if you want to be such precise, that would also require renaming all other sizecoded intro categories, why there is no confusion if the 1kB intro is a crack intro or a 1kB restricted demo?
For me that's a really artificial issue, which should be replaced with more people contributing 4k's instead ;) Now that's a strawman. Two, actually.
But yeah, more 4Ks. And whatever the category names, RTFR. =)
Quoting wacekTrackmos were originally "trackloaded demos", seems to me that is also not precise... Sure, just another silly name (it sounds cool, though). And the very concept of "trackloading" doesn't make sense on C-64 (while it does on Amiga). =) |
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Knight Rider
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 116 |
Quoting wacekJust to clarify my understanding of "newcomer award" - take the best demo that was done by somebody young/debuting etc and reward it. Orgas could easily be the judges there.
Separate "newcomer" compo was never my idea, as it is not a good one ;)
Yes... exactly this. Could be a 1st timer at X, never submitted before, new to C64 etc. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1050 |
Quoting Knight Rider... I spent the whole time moaning that the 4 other ones submitted weren't intros, but 4kb demos. I was told it's not CSDB rules that are applying here...
- there are no 4K csdb rules, besides filesize.
- there was no 4K intro competition at X, there was a 4K competition.
- in PC world, 4K intro means 4K demo.
was it really too hard to just read the rules? there was no mention of the word "intro" anywhere. |
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Knight Rider
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 116 |
Quoting Burglarwas it really too hard to just read the rules? there was no mention of the word "intro" anywhere.
Sure there was, plenty of places...
. X'2023 C64 4K Intro
. Event id #3187 : X'2023 A quick clarification request for the 4k intro compo rules
. on the scs-trc.net page for X2023 the category was 4KB INTRO
. on http://vote.x also stated 4KB INTRO
and even...
Quoting BurglarQuoting Knight RiderI didn't see any update about the 4KB intro. It's 4KB before, or after crunching ? see post #6, #2, #3, #4 and #5 in this thread. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1050 |
Quoting Knight Rider- X'2023 C64 4K Intro
that's how csdb mistakenly calls 4k compos, not visible until after entries get added to the event here.
Quoting Knight Rider- Event id #3187 : X'2023 A quick clarification request for the 4k intro compo rules just cause someone not involved with the party makes a mistake with a compotitle in a csdb post, doesn't make it a rule.
Quoting Knight Rider- on the scs-trc.net page for X2023 the category was 4KB INTRO
Ah yes, will change for next time. The rules themselves did not mention any of the weird rules used by Didi for his crack intro competition.
Quoting Knight Rider- on http://vote.x also stated 4KB INTRO
Incorrect, it said "4K".
Quoting BurglarQuoting Knight RiderI didn't see any update about the 4KB intro. It's 4KB before, or after crunching ? see post #6, #2, #3, #4 and #5 in this thread. [/quote]maybe read post 2 through 6 again. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting BurglarQuoting Knight Rider... I spent the whole time moaning that the 4 other ones submitted weren't intros, but 4kb demos. I was told it's not CSDB rules that are applying here...
- there are no 4K csdb rules, besides filesize.
- there was no 4K intro competition at X, there was a 4K competition.
- in PC world, 4K intro means 4K demo. Just calling the compo "4K" is the best idea to avoid "intro" vs "demo" arguments. =) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5028 |
I guess >~25 years ago I was also perplexed why size restricted demos are called intros in the pc scene, but by now I got totally used to it :) in the oldschool c64 scene intro always referred to "crack" intros, so much, crack intro also a term invented by the stupid pc guys, to differentiate their idiotic 4k intro from crack intros. its quite nuts as I think about it :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11148 |
Quote:crack intro also a term invented by the stupid pc guys, to differentiate their idiotic 4k intro from crack intros.
Actually they'd call it "cracktro". "crack intro" does not exist anywhere :=) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1381 |
Yup, 4k Demo is well understood to refer to file size, and the rules always support that.
ICC is indeed an outlier, with its additional memory restrictions - and the "Intro" part of the compo name makes it reasonably clear that the idea is to make things that could at least theoretically share space with a much bigger payload.
I do like the idea of limiting the number of disk sides.. |
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map
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 27 |
Quote: Respectfully I think annual X is a bad idea. Will drain other parties, and also less megamega prods will emerge. Also: May/June? :( I would prefer autumn again. But that might be just me, working within the School year (Same for Dane and so on) makes it impossible to attend during the most stressful time of the year. I would guess it's the same for a lot of guys with kids in school.
+1
Especially what you said about the reccurence of the event.
Regarding compo rules, IMO not a single thing should be changed.
Each change will have different drawbacks, I guess.
E.g. think about limiting to a single disk side vs. having things like the Censor Rap being possible to be added into a production. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036 |
Quote:drain As far as I'm concerned, I think that no organizer should complain about other parties crashing with it's dates or being held annually or anything. Yes, it's unfortunate when party dates collide, when less supported parties get less entries etc, but that's a competition, let the best win the best releases and biggest support. I'm saying that as ex-organizer of Forever Party which was always being mostly supported by local scene and surrounding countries (with notable exceptions). That's the spirit. Let the SVK, Polish, Hungarian, Czech, Austrian show what they can do, and if they don't, it's their fault that they suck at being productive and relevant in the scene on their own. Same with upcoming Arok. If we (the locals from around the area) are good enough, we should produce remarkable productions for this party to make it big and we should be able to visit it and have a good time. Let he X be the biggest and best party for as long as possible, and others should move their ass to work hard to be the second second and third. And no I'm not asslicking X-orgas butts here. Don't forget that I pissed on their stairs... 20+ years ago... and they didn't ban me for life, I'm just too lazy to go there and do it again (together with winning some decent place in the compo).
p.s.: annoucing the next party date immediately after the party has ended -> Brilliant! Can only be topped by launching registration etc. asap ;-) Waiting for it. I have put the date in my google calendar already. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quoting mapE.g. think about limiting to a single disk side vs. having things like the Censor Rap being possible to be added into a production. The idea was to have separate compos for <= 1 diskside and 2+ disksides. So it's not an either/or. |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
When it comes to demo competitions, one rule I think would make sense is: No one individual can compete in more than one entry, when it comes to creating *new work. As a result, it might stop different demo’s looking/sounding/feeling samely.
I say *new work, as it would leave for the door open for example, if a demo makes use of a .sid that has already been released. Or a demo makes use of a loader created by X. Or in the case of Next Level/Performers, the use of graphics from games previously released. |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 449 |
Count me in.
If turns out that the demo coders won't deliver that much entries you could maybe increase the time limit for us musicians (?) ... I'll dance and party hard for sure even when we split music compo for two days ;-)
Oh and next time I get in your way watching demo compos just knock on my shoulder earlier to tell me to go fuck off. I didn't realize I was blocking your sight. I just wanted to be as near as possible at the P.A. because everything could have been way louder imho.
Looking forward to X'2024! |
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Higgie
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 114 |
Quote: Quoting mapE.g. think about limiting to a single disk side vs. having things like the Censor Rap being possible to be added into a production. The idea was to have separate compos for <= 1 diskside and 2+ disksides. So it's not an either/or.
I'm very much looking forward to the next X. And I hope the date is fixed as it's on one of the few weekends in May that is not blocked for me already - well, now it is. ;)
Regarding the compos. I liked the idea of an award for single file demos. And I also like the idea of giving away top 3 awards. (we could have used a top 5 award for our demo BTW ;) ) Splitting into too many compos doesn't sound too attractive to me. But to limit the number of disk sides does. Two disk sides should be enough. So everybody has a chance to show their skills in doing change-disk-parts at least once per demo. It would be a great loss for the scene if those parts would vanish. ;) I also would opt for a runtime limit of 12 to 15 minutes. I saw one guy next to me falling asleep during the compo. (you know who you are!) But seriously: Demo creators, reduce to the max! :)
But back to the main topic: Where can I buy my ticket? I want to reserve a room now! I want more than just two meat balls!
A small suggestion: One or two more ashtrays on the way to the main hall would be great. :)
Higgie/Onslaught |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting CruzerQuoting mapE.g. think about limiting to a single disk side vs. having things like the Censor Rap being possible to be added into a production. The idea was to have separate compos for <= 1 diskside and 2+ disksides. So it's not an either/or. 1 disk = 2 disksides (or less) seems like the natural packaging size. If anything, more than 2 sides should get an extra compo. :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting Wile CoyoteOr a demo makes use of a loader created by X. WAT |
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dyme
Registered: Nov 2018
Posts: 14 |
As a newcomer at X'2018 let me throw in that showing stuff on the big screen between the other awesome demos is in itself a great reward. You'd probably have a hard time detecting jokers turning in bogus trash demos to mock such a 'newcomer' category anyway.
Single file as a category in itself would make the most sense, as they are now indestinguishable from the other demos and that additional restriction should be made visible more. How many disk sides a demo uses is already pretty visible. |
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dyme
Registered: Nov 2018
Posts: 14 |
Quote: Quoting Wile CoyoteOr a demo makes use of a loader created by X. WAT
Wait, so you're not rewriting the loader system for every new demo from scratch? Now thats lame. Next you're telling me you're using a stock compiler and a paint program not even written by your group!!
@wile I get it, I like seeing new tech. But loaders, packers and sid-players are huge hurdles, and your're basically placing these restrictions on small and new groups only. And of course they are next to impossible to detect and enforce. |
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Boogaloo
Registered: Aug 2019
Posts: 21 |
I'm pretty sure that Wile meant the exact opposite, that loaders and already released tunes would be exempt from the rules, since those are not newly created.
This would mean that Lft would be allowed to compete with a demo even if someone else has used Spindle in a demo, but The Sarge would only be able to contribute with graphics in one of the demos in the competition.
That's how I interpret Wile's suggestion. |
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Bitbreaker
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 501 |
Are you aware what you are asking for? This would mean, some people should hold back on their fun creating content, gfx, code, music. That people contribute to more than one project lies in their high activity. Who are you to limit others fun? :-D Fun is the only thing that drives me in the process of creating a demo and the luck of having quite some sparetime to spend into doing demos. I might think of holding back if you spend and pay me some travel and holidays :-P |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Why does anyone want to change anything? Weird IMO… X compo is perfect as is.
Annual is too much for many of us, sure.. and the timing complicates it for many too. Maybe 2025 could shift back to Autumn?
In terms of how many demos could be released etc… work harder, faster, sheeple :p .. or just release every 2, or 3, or 5 years? Nobody said you have to release at every X.
Also.: re: the big leagues, little leagues, etc.. why? I want to fight with the big groups. Who dictates the league anyway? If it’s “the people”, that’s not fair.. if it’s the group themselves.. what’s to stop Booze deciding they want to fight in the little league?
I would just leave things alone… if it isn’t broke, don’t fix it. |
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Boogaloo
Registered: Aug 2019
Posts: 21 |
Quote: Are you aware what you are asking for? This would mean, some people should hold back on their fun creating content, gfx, code, music. That people contribute to more than one project lies in their high activity. Who are you to limit others fun? :-D Fun is the only thing that drives me in the process of creating a demo and the luck of having quite some sparetime to spend into doing demos. I might think of holding back if you spend and pay me some travel and holidays :-P
I was just interpreting Wile's suggestion. I agree with you. :-) |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
@Boogaloo You got it. Spot on!
It would put an end to either a coder, musician, graphician, designer etc appearing in (being credited for) more than one demo in any one ‘Demo’ compo.
@dyme The restrictions would apply across the board to old and new groups :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting Wile CoyoteIt would put an end to either a coder, musician, graphician, designer etc appearing in (being credited for) more than one demo in any one ‘Demo’ compo. And why is that a problem. Seriously. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
And no one should be above 1.70m tall, I suggest.
Not trying to ridicule an ongoing discussion but I find it indeed quite weird to tell people what (not) to do in their free time.
Plus: this X was (again) super amazing. Why change it or anything about it? |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1050 |
Funny thread this, people trying to change the rules so they can win. Not by merit, but by adding restrictions for our best coders, graphicians and musicians. The answer is no :)
Collaboration is key in the demo-scene, something that should be encouraged and cherished.
What many of you are forgetting is that this was the first X after 5 years, it's only logical that so many sceners and groups went all-out, resulting in the biggest and best X compo ever. Yes it was overwhelming, yes beating any of the top 10 will be impossible for most, yes, this was X :)
Since we are throwing another one in less than a year, all of the suggested restrictions are irrelevant: there simply is not enough time for any group to deliver the same huge size and quality of demos.
Quoting Groepaz... i think that annual party actually makes the compos more "approachable" again. ... this :)
It doesn't mean we may do some small changes to the setup, but we need time to relax and evaluate. I still haven't fully recovered :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting BurglarSince we are throwing another one in less than a year, all of the suggested restrictions are irrelevant: there simply is not enough time for any group to deliver the same huge size and quality of demos. As was mentioned above, it's possible when skipping an X (or two). A few big players haven't participated this year... =) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quote: Quoting Wile CoyoteIt would put an end to either a coder, musician, graphician, designer etc appearing in (being credited for) more than one demo in any one ‘Demo’ compo. And why is that a problem. Seriously.
IRQ loaders are one problem. How many used Bitbreaker loader this time? Quite a few I believe..? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11148 |
Quote:As was mentioned above, it's possible when skipping an X (or two). A few big players haven't participated this year... =)
So the obvious thing is to make participation mandatory. OR ELSE! |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting RaistlinIRQ loaders are one problem. How many used Bitbreaker loader this time? Quite a few I believe..? So? What's your point? Why is this a problem? :) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1381 |
From now on, each entry must be created by a single scener who wrote the entire thing including tools by using the action replay monitor, one entry per scener.
Workstages in the form of a twitch stream of the desk in the codermusiciangraphicians bedroom from the past seven years. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3137 |
> using the action replay monitor
pfft, the real scener(TM) uses his own built cart monitor, not using pre-existing ones, because they are lame by definition and don't work how he wants anyway. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11148 |
POKEs baby |
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Boogaloo
Registered: Aug 2019
Posts: 21 |
And the demo must be called "The 4 Yorkshire men". |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
@Burgler i think you possibly failed to understand the point i was making. Sure 'Collaboration is key in the demo-scene' but where do you draw the line? ..a single entry into X spanning 20 disk sides, resulting in a guaranteed no.1 spot and everyone becomes a winner ;D
@Raistlin If you re_read my post, multiple demos using a pre_existing loader would be fine. If someone coded a new loader, multiple Demos would not be allowed to use the exact same loader until after the Compo is over. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting Wile CoyoteIf someone coded a new loader, multiple Demos would not be allowed to use the exact same loader until after the Compo is over. So... resident portion at different addresses okay? Or a slightly different set of options to produce non-identical binaries? :) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1381 |
I'm relieved to see that now Transmission64 3rd Edition (2022) is over, everyone has Wile Coyote's royal permission to use BitPickler 1.0.0 for compos without checking if anyone else has dibs :P
(assuming the same rules apply for crunchers as for loaders) |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
@Krill now you are being silly! ;P |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting Wile Coyote@Krill now you are being silly! ;P Am i now! But really, your solution is looking for a problem. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quote: Quoting RaistlinIRQ loaders are one problem. How many used Bitbreaker loader this time? Quite a few I believe..? So? What's your point? Why is this a problem? :)
I’m not sure what the argument is now :-)
I don’t want coders working on more than one demo, of course, but it can’t be policed, especially in the age of crediting loaders :-)
The other problem with only allowing a coder to work on one thing: somebody could rip code from the 50 “top” coders.. post a demo with these ripped parts in, sending it to Burglar the very minute that submissions are open. Does this then succeed in disallowing any further demos from those 50 people?
As I say.. I wish people would stop trying to change the rules… there’s usually an ulterior motive ;p |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
That said, 4-side demos should be retrospectively banned from X ;-) .. that would give us X2023 with our 2 side demo ;p
We did that for you by the way, Krill :-) .. we -were- listening to you during the E2ira anim arguments where you suggested we could still compress my heavily unrolled code :-) (and we did! Well, Sparta did mostly..) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting RaistlinI’m not sure what the argument is now :-) Me neither. Just wondering why the same loader used in competing demos would be a problem.
Quoting RaistlinI don’t want coders working on more than one demo, of course When was that ever an actual concern in a given demo compo? Same graphician or musician featured in competing demos, or a compopic also being used in a demo, otoh...
Still. It's the product that counts first and foremost.
Quoting Raistlinespecially in the age of crediting loaders :-) That age started in the mid-late 1990s or so? And still, why is that a problem? :)
Quoting RaistlinThe other problem with only allowing a coder to work on one thing: somebody could rip code from the 50 “top” coders.. post a demo with these ripped parts in, sending it to Burglar the very minute that submissions are open. Does this then succeed in disallowing any further demos from those 50 people? Quite a contrived example. And that code would have to be previously unreleased, "stolen" from workdisks or something, in order to satisfy the constraints.
Quoting RaistlinWe did that for you by the way, Krill :-) .. we -were- listening to you during the E2ira anim arguments where you suggested we could still compress my heavily unrolled code :-) (and we did! Well, Sparta did mostly..) If it was done for anybody or anything, then yourselves and your egos (and not for me, who merely pointed out some things). =) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5028 |
lol around 96-97 I have used dasheele loader ripped from smash without credit. had a nice debugging session with void, turn disk recognizer routine didnt work, because I have size optimised it away :D |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting Oswaldlol around 96-97 I have used dasheele loader ripped from smash without credit. had a nice debugging session with void, turn disk recognizer routine didnt work, because I have size optimised it away :D That loader was infamous for being coded like a raster routine. Exact to the cycle - bad idea when dealing with physical moving parts. =) |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 467 |
Quoting BurglarFunny thread this, people trying to change the rules so they can win. Not by merit, but by adding restrictions for our best coders, graphicians and musicians. The answer is no :)
Mega+1
The compos at X worked fine, why even think about changing the rules?
Quoting BurglarCollaboration is key in the demo-scene, something that should be encouraged and cherished.
What many of you are forgetting is that this was the first X after 5 years, it's only logical that so many sceners and groups went all-out, resulting in the biggest and best X compo ever. Yes it was overwhelming, yes beating any of the top 10 will be impossible for most, yes, this was X :)
I second everything you stated, Burglar, besides...
Quoting BurglarSince we are throwing another one in less than a year, all of the suggested restrictions are irrelevant: there simply is not enough time for any group to deliver the same huge size and quality of demos.
Well... what about the groups that didn't show up this year? They might blast everyone away due to the 5 1/2 year dev time ;) Frankly spoken: I wouldn't really mind and let me get blasted away happily *bigsmile* |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5028 |
Quote: Quoting Oswaldlol around 96-97 I have used dasheele loader ripped from smash without credit. had a nice debugging session with void, turn disk recognizer routine didnt work, because I have size optimised it away :D That loader was infamous for being coded like a raster routine. Exact to the cycle - bad idea when dealing with physical moving parts. =)
yeah, I didnt know how to code loaders, but I saw it avoids badlines, and I have found out it doesnt like sprites either :) but it worked and was much faster than something else I used earlier, you went with what you got :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting Copyfaultthe first X after 5 years [...] They might blast everyone away due to the 5 1/2 year dev time ;) Indeed. I'd like to add that in reality, the effective time was a bit shorter, though, as probably everybody did have to deal with a bit of motivational problems during those years, amounting to a few months at least. But that's just details. =) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting Oswaldyeah, I didnt know how to code loaders, but I saw it avoids badlines, and I have found out it doesnt like sprites either :) but it worked and was much faster than something else I used earlier, you went with what you got :) I meant the original loader, not your derivative of it. =) So no offence to your loader-coding skills or lack thereof. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5028 |
Quote: Quoting Oswaldyeah, I didnt know how to code loaders, but I saw it avoids badlines, and I have found out it doesnt like sprites either :) but it worked and was much faster than something else I used earlier, you went with what you got :) I meant the original loader, not your derivative of it. =) So no offence to your loader-coding skills or lack thereof.
absolutely no offence taken :) I dont know what you mean by my derivative, I've simply binary ripped it from a smash demo, no changes from my side on it, and yes I have realized it not very sophisticated, but I was yet to see a really good loader in those times. I accepted it as is with the shortcomings, as one does with new things when he doesnt know better. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quoting krillMe neither. Just wondering why the same loader used in competing demos would be a problem.
Somebody said that each coder/artist/musician should only be in one demo entry .. but if there're 24 entries, that means we need 24 different loaders. Plus the complication of what happens if 5 demos user Krill loader and then you, Krill, enter your own demo as well? :-)
As I say .. for me, I'd leave everything alone. And I don't think it matters, compo-wise, whether there's a 1, 2, 5 or 10 year gap. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
One small thing that I wonder about .. the play order of demos.
There's obviously some pre-screening or decision making that goes on behind the scenes to decide in what order the demos are played in. It seems unlikely that the top 5 demos were just surprisingly chosen to be the last 5 that would be played ;-)
I wonder how this works.. and whether a more typical (thinking outside of demoscene here, more about regular competitions) randomised play order would be fairer..?
Any system of pre-ordering can suggest to people about which demos the orgas think are better... which feels unfair to all the demos that came earlier in the compo... and especially for those shown at the very beginning.
Just a thought.
I did wonder how the ordering is determined, though.. is the order based on placings from previous years? Pre-viewings of submitted demos? Or just a gut feeling from the orgas based on which groups are submitting and how many disks there are? (this could be true - we were the first of the top 5 and the only to be on a single disk instead of two). |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5028 |
Raistlin, imho it would seriously suck to watch the best demos earlier, and then some of the compofiller ones. Do you seriously think this changes results? |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quote: Raistlin, imho it would seriously suck to watch the best demos earlier, and then some of the compofiller ones. Do you seriously think this changes results?
I'm not sure that I understand why it would suck.. but I'm sure there's method in the madness - and I think it's been this way for a long time at many of the parties so there must be a good reason for it.. |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
@Raistlin Agreed, the demo display order should be random. Maybe X should have one of those Bingo machines fill with balls. Each demo could be assigned a number or letter :D |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting RaistlinI'm not sure that I understand why it would suck.. but I'm sure there's method in the madness - and I think it's been this way for a long time at many of the parties so there must be a good reason for it.. Random has been tried and comes with its own set of problems. The bumpy change quality and effort, as Oswald mentioned, maybe be refreshing to some but annoying to others.
The way it is now (randomised within ordered bins) seems to have the least problems. Watching a compo expecting generally progressively "better" entries has a certain charm.
As for changing compo results, pretty sure a different voting system would have more sway there. Such as ranking entries (with a same-rank option) instead of grading them. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting RaistlinSomebody said that each coder/artist/musician should only be in one demo entry .. but if there're 24 entries, that means we need 24 different loaders. You're casually omitting the new-work clause. But anyways, nobody agreed with that suggestion, so better ignore it from now on.
Quoting RaistlinPlus the complication of what happens if 5 demos user Krill loader and then you, Krill, enter your own demo as well? :-) Easy, it'll be a onefiler. =) (Or running on a previously unreleased loader version.) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Raistlin, the order was based on the size of the entries. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting TDJRaistlin, the order was based on the size of the entries. Seems like a good proxy for amount of content (size after compression, i take it). Can of course be trolled with some random bits. =) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting ChristopherJamI do like the idea of limiting the number of disk sides.. This doesn't seem to happen for X, but it would certainly make it more interesting.
Adding another disk side is cheap these days, and an easy way out for ever more content.
Restricting to two disk sides would pose new and interesting challenges, and yield better comparability of demos.
Development of denser disk encoding schemes and associated tools would be resumed. People would put unrolled code to disk less casually. The sweet spot somewhere in the range between fully real-time and fully-streamed would shift. Etc. =) |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1050 |
Quoting KrillQuoting TDJRaistlin, the order was based on the size of the entries. Seems like a good proxy for amount of content (size after compression, i take it). Can of course be trolled with some random bits. =) yes, the demo compo was sorted by entropy. It took me a total of 0.291 seconds to sort the entire demo compo. All other compos are randomized. I call it the burg-method :)
I am extremely happy how it turned out, zero reason to change it, so I won't :) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1994 |
Just hand in the demo _after_ the compo like I did with Drinking Buddies at previous X. :D (Tbh I accidentally placed it in the wrong category and had to beg for it to be shown). |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1050 |
Quoting JackAsserJust hand in the demo _after_ the compo like I did with Drinking Buddies at previous X. :D (Tbh I accidentally placed it in the wrong category and had to beg for it to be shown). I remember :) This actually happened again with 1 entry, but this time the uploader found out before the compo started.
I told em he was in good company and explained you did the same thing, so he shouldn't feel bad ;) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 449 |
About "pre-sorting" demos: In 2016 when the compo started with Bonzai we in Mayday! thought they forgot our demo XD |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Quoting KrillQuoting TDJRaistlin, the order was based on the size of the entries. Seems like a good proxy for amount of content (size after compression, i take it). Can of course be trolled with some random bits. =) yes, the demo compo was sorted by entropy. It took me a total of 0.291 seconds to sort the entire demo compo. All other compos are randomized. I call it the burg-method :)
I am extremely happy how it turned out, zero reason to change it, so I won't :)
It was sorted by Entropy? The group Wile Coyote used to be part of? So it seems he actually does have some kind of influence on the X-organizers .. All of a sudden I'm taking his suggestions a lot more serious! |
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Youth
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 41 |
I hope that, like for me, the demoscene is about creativity and cooperation and competition is only a tiny little aspect of that. Any rules that limit the flowing of that juicy creativity would really be a shame. And putting people in categories of skills is something we left behind a long time ago right? There are no real lamers anymore. Only friends and mutual respect, no matter how skilled you are.
Maybe it is easy for me to say because I am not competitive by nature, but I can hardly believe that people in the scene put those ridicilously long hours into this art to win an award. I am sure they make art for art's sake, why on earth would we put limitations on art? |
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Boogaloo
Registered: Aug 2019
Posts: 21 |
Quote: I hope that, like for me, the demoscene is about creativity and cooperation and competition is only a tiny little aspect of that. Any rules that limit the flowing of that juicy creativity would really be a shame. And putting people in categories of skills is something we left behind a long time ago right? There are no real lamers anymore. Only friends and mutual respect, no matter how skilled you are.
Maybe it is easy for me to say because I am not competitive by nature, but I can hardly believe that people in the scene put those ridicilously long hours into this art to win an award. I am sure they make art for art's sake, why on earth would we put limitations on art?
This! This! This! |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5028 |
Quote: Just hand in the demo _after_ the compo like I did with Drinking Buddies at previous X. :D (Tbh I accidentally placed it in the wrong category and had to beg for it to be shown).
:D |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 467 |
e^(Youth) (+1 was not enough ;) ) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11148 |
As for ordering in a compo, i find it MUCH more enjoyable to watch if its not just a random mashup but has some sort of buildup. It has been common practise on many (even most?) parties for a while, and it works nicely. Totally random sucks. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1381 |
Three cheers for the burg-method!
Quoting TDJIt was sorted by Entropy? The group Wile Coyote used to be part of? So it seems he actually does have some kind of influence on the X-organizers .. All of a sudden I'm taking his suggestions a lot more serious!
:D :D :D |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 422 |
It is a human quality that people who feel excluded demand to be acknowledged by some existing organization of prestige and tradition. Sometimes there are deep moral and basic rights issues which do have to be discussed, but in my opinion the solution in most cases is obvious.
Set up an organization and rules of your own, you'll get what you want and others might even support that. New religions and nations have born this way. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting MixerSet up an organization and rules of your own, you'll get what you want and others might even support that. New religions and nations have born this way. Sounds romantic, but i guess that bit with fighting, violence and war should not be ignored in that context. =) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11148 |
Thats why we have spicy meatballs |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 422 |
Krill: This is the way. |
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Higgie
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 114 |
Quote: It is a human quality that people who feel excluded demand to be acknowledged by some existing organization of prestige and tradition. Sometimes there are deep moral and basic rights issues which do have to be discussed, but in my opinion the solution in most cases is obvious.
Set up an organization and rules of your own, you'll get what you want and others might even support that. New religions and nations have born this way.
talking about religion...
can we have the real ron hubbard next time, please?
the guy you presented was a fake!
;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11148 |
And then have him sign 80s pron mags |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quote: I hope that, like for me, the demoscene is about creativity and cooperation and competition is only a tiny little aspect of that. Any rules that limit the flowing of that juicy creativity would really be a shame. And putting people in categories of skills is something we left behind a long time ago right? There are no real lamers anymore. Only friends and mutual respect, no matter how skilled you are.
Maybe it is easy for me to say because I am not competitive by nature, but I can hardly believe that people in the scene put those ridicilously long hours into this art to win an award. I am sure they make art for art's sake, why on earth would we put limitations on art?
100% yes. I’ve had people telling me that No Bounds could’ve done better if it had animations, like Bonzai/PL and Censor, or was 3 disks (as though that’s a magic trigger), etc etc. I can’t speak for the rest of the team, of course, but I have no interest in working on animations and such myself. I make demos I like to make, code that I enjoy creating, meeting challenges that I set myself, etc.
I just had someone telling me that my Not Bob’s Bobs part was identical to Censor’s .. it wasn’t - but maybe non-coders wouldn’t quite catch the difference and why it’s significant (codeporn-wise). It doesn’t matter though because it wasn’t meant to be just a crowd-pleaser - it was simply something that I wanted to try, to see if it was possible. I like the challenge.
When you start making demos that are for the crowd, rather than yourself, I think that’s when you can really start to get burnt out and disinterested - because it becomes a job, pandering to others’ tastes. Just do it for yourself - and if others like it too, that’s a nice bonus. |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 837 |
uuurghh... sorry, I can't hold it anymore. PLEASE change that dash to an apostrophe! kthnx. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1050 |
X'2024 registration and reservation is now open at https://xparty.net/
It has been a long journey but the completely renewed X-Party Website is live at last! Registration is open so everybody who wants to come and join the C-64 reunion is invited to register an account and reserve a ticket at: https://xparty.net/
Later this week you will be able to purchase your ticket and optionally buy one or more T-Shirts.
We look forward to meet everybody again on the 10th of May in Someren. |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
So I have booked a ticket for the event, really looking forward to it.
If anyone is going by car from close to where I am (near Freiburg im Breisgau) Could do a rideshare and I would ofc pay for some of the gas. Hit me up with a PM here. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 422 |
I must say that I like the new xparty.net site design. Joyous look and solid functionality. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1050 |
Quoting MixerI must say that I like the new xparty.net site design. Joyous look and solid functionality. Thanks a lot Mixer :) |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 407 |
Any pre-X warm up meeting happening on Thursday somewhere near the venue? Maybe right in front of the venue? |
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Quiss
Registered: Nov 2016
Posts: 40 |
I second Ninja's question. :)
(Ninja, what kind of weird pre-X sleeping arrangement do you have, that makes the outskirts of Someren into the most convenient location, on Thursday?) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11148 |
Nerdine and me will be in Eindhoven Thursday Evening, in case someone wants to join... |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 407 |
@Quiss: Well, my "sleeping arrangement" is motorized, so I am quite flexible. I think I assumed ppl BBQing on Thursday already without the need for a sleeping place till Friday. Seems, I am stuck in the past and times have changed...
@gpz: Meeting in Eindhoven sounds great. Quiss, will you join? |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 449 |
Quoting Ninjaand times have changed...
That little part gave me a nice earworm on this monday morning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90WD_ats6eE
:-) |
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Quiss
Registered: Nov 2016
Posts: 40 |
Quoting Ninja
Meeting in Eindhoven sounds great. Quiss, will you join?
Yeah, I'm down!
(A campervan? That's clever. I'm sleeping in Rotterdam, Thu->Fri. But the trains are quick.) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11148 |
PM me your emails, i'll send details :) |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1050 |
it is ok for some of you to arrive on thursday evening, but only with our permission. u can reach us here: https://xparty.net/about
there may be a couple euro extra to pay to cover for tax. we wont have food/drinks for you until the party starts, also no breakfast on friday morning. of course you are welcome to bring ur own food/beer/whatever, just dont make a mess :)
the weather is going to be awesome this X, bring sunscreen-lotion :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11148 |
Quote:it is ok for some of you to arrive on thursday evening
Bleh, i tried to contact the owners of the location weeks ago and asked about this and got no reply at all :( |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1050 |
Quoting chatGPZQuote:it is ok for some of you to arrive on thursday evening
Bleh, i tried to contact the owners of the location weeks ago and asked about this and got no reply at all :( dude, I talk to you on irc every day, just ask :) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quoting Burglardude, I talk to you on irc every day, just ask :)
Nice try :p … it’s 2024. IRC 🤣 |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4617 |
Quote: Quoting Burglardude, I talk to you on irc every day, just ask :)
Nice try :p … it’s 2024. IRC 🤣
Lovely answer from someone who codes demos for the Commodore 64. In 2024. :D |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quote: Lovely answer from someone who codes demos for the Commodore 64. In 2024. :D
Umm umm… dammit. |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Veto going to be there..
I guess the winning demo will be from Oxyron or The Performers :D
..or maybe Booze Design will release something big. I sort of doubt that happening. |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 717 |
I think Camelot will win. Or perhaps Resource! |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
My bet is on Crest. |
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goerp
Registered: Feb 2006
Posts: 21 |
Anyone staying/travelling from Amsterdam?
Would be nice to meet up.
[Edit] ok, got my answer |
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Magic
Registered: Sep 2012
Posts: 44 |
Time to show it gentlemen for this years X =) |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 228 |
Will there be streaming? |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Quote: Anyone staying/travelling from Amsterdam?
Would be nice to meet up.
[Edit] ok, got my answer
(wrong quote) |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Quote: My bet is on Crest.
Good luck with that bet ;) |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 228 |
Quoting Wile CoyoteGood luck with that bet ;)
Well, i was betting on Horizon comeback... |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 250 |
Quote: Will there be streaming?
Streaming is provided courtesy of FRaNKy on Twitch and Scenesat:
https://www.twitch.tv/transmission64
https://scenesat.com/
We've also got the music compo on our Transmission64 YouTube channel:
https://youtu.be/wZMEcXHd-T4
It looks like there's no video feed to stream from the concerts downstairs. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 456 |
thanks for the tube link! a nice surprise for those who could not watch the livestream. can we count on another one tomorrow morning? ;) |
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Ziphoid
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 2 |
The recorded stream will automagically pop up in our video archive at https://scenesat.com :) And you can also rewind the running stream, in case you're late to the show and want to catch up. |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 250 |
We're adding the recordings on YouTube as well, but don't forget you can also view it on Scenesat.
The talks are there, music, graphics, PETSCII and 4k intro so far. The demo compo recording is being prepped.
This is the playlist, videos will be added as available:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZrOu95tr-T7Uo8xt-L5weYc.. |
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 346 |
Quote: I think Camelot will win. Or perhaps Resource!
you will win if you join cosine ;-)
people hold back stuff for 1 or 2 years. thats how it is now.
I'm glad my old dutch friends hold such a good party BUT it's a bit like football premier league vs some guys who have the sunday kick about after a drinking fest on a saturday night.
finding stuff that hasn't been done already.. good luck with that.. just seems about optimization now.. like games, it's gone the way of the music industry.. demos from say 85+ onward are a very distant thing.
it's maybe 5 or 10 groups that REALLY push to win.. vs other groups with far less resources..
right , anyone got crossbows email ? i'm sure he'll join up ;-) |
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The Sarge
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 43 |
While I agree it's harder to find new things to do on a technical level there is still much to explore storywise and both audibly and visibly. Finding new ways to express yourself with visuals and music perfectly synced together bringing emotions to demos in a new way.
I will keep doing this as long as the people I work with put up with me! :)
And don't sit and hold back releases. Working in a constant pace while the iron is hot is the key. Otherwise it's start and stop and that breaks the creative flow.
Thanks for X24. See you at X26 and I will be there again.
Keep demoing! |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
The Fairlight demo looked really something.
I liked the tune that plays at the end, by Danko.
Loved all the red & white text over images, and the images themselves. The theme/story worked really well.
Does the demo have enough to make it into the CSDb Top 10 ? |
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serato
Registered: Feb 2021
Posts: 7 |
Quote: While I agree it's harder to find new things to do on a technical level there is still much to explore storywise and both audibly and visibly. Finding new ways to express yourself with visuals and music perfectly synced together bringing emotions to demos in a new way.
I will keep doing this as long as the people I work with put up with me! :)
And don't sit and hold back releases. Working in a constant pace while the iron is hot is the key. Otherwise it's start and stop and that breaks the creative flow.
Thanks for X24. See you at X26 and I will be there again.
Keep demoing!
I feel like our entry was primarily about showcasing a couple of new things on a technical level. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1292 |
After watching FG and FLT productions or Reflex 4k I'd argue there's still a lot room for fresh codeporn and 'how TF did they do' moments <3 |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2086 |
Quoting Wile CoyoteThe Fairlight demo looked really something. ...
That kid trident was a nice catch for FLT (nice talking to you), looking 4wd to future X when other 1337 groups join again, FLT is definetely a group I expect to keep competing for winning in the next couple of years. |
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papapower
Registered: Aug 2021
Posts: 6 |
Quote: After watching FG and FLT productions or Reflex 4k I'd argue there's still a lot room for fresh codeporn and 'how TF did they do' moments <3
Completely agree, I believe that we’re still going to see some code porn, on the 4k side because there is still a lot to do sizecoding on the C64 but also on trackmo kind of releases where continuous disk loading feels like you have way more than 64k to play with |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2854 |
Quoting chancerpeople hold back stuff for 1 or 2 years. thats how it is now. Nobody "holds back" stuff. It's made with a deadline in mind and more often than not finished very close to it.
Quoting chancerit's a bit like football premier league vs some guys who have the sunday kick about after a drinking fest on a saturday night. Including armchair coaches who are disappointed when their favourite players don't deliver as expected, eh? :)
Quoting chancerfinding stuff that hasn't been done already.. good luck with that.. just seems about optimization now.. like games, it's gone the way of the music industry.. demos from say 85+ onward are a very distant thing. Technical innovations have always been rare. They still do happen often enough, but maybe not with the ancient style you seem to be fond of. |
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El Jefe
Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 69 |
Thanks to the X-organizers for spoiling us with such a well-organized party.
It was great to finally meet some more of my scene heroes like e.g. Mibri, Psycho8580, Honcho, Krill, Toggle, Almighty God (after 30 years!!), Flex, Trident, Linus, ... in person, even if it was just a short chat with some of you.
Will be back in 2026 for sure!
El Jefe/Slackers/sidDivers |
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Mibri
Registered: Feb 2018
Posts: 209 |
Another killer party! Thank you so much to all of the organisers; you are some seriously smooth operators. See you in 2026! |
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psych
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 141 |
Amazing people creating a fantastic atmosphere—that's how I would summarize this experience. Organizers, you're true legends. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for what you do! |
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Mibri
Registered: Feb 2018
Posts: 209 |
A rough little video of my trip here. :) |
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Case
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 139 |
Quote: The Fairlight demo looked really something.
I liked the tune that plays at the end, by Danko.
Loved all the red & white text over images, and the images themselves. The theme/story worked really well.
Does the demo have enough to make it into the CSDb Top 10 ?
You need to come to the next one mate, watching is one thing, but actually being their is a whole new level.
big thanks to the organisers for an amazing weekend and to everyone i spoke to .. you all made it what it was. |
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serato
Registered: Feb 2021
Posts: 7 |
Quote: After watching FG and FLT productions or Reflex 4k I'd argue there's still a lot room for fresh codeporn and 'how TF did they do' moments <3
Speaking of code porn, I've tried to explain how the effects in Layers work here Release id #242834 : Layers |
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Knight Rider
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 116 |
Was it my imagination, or did the snake oil salesman say his 35 euro (that are 6 euro including postage from Ali express) hoodies are Official Commodore Merch ? |
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Tim
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 77 |
We apologize for people bringing fake Commodore hoodies. Those responsible for inviting those people have been sacked. |
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Magic
Registered: Sep 2012
Posts: 44 |
I made a youtube playlist with amongst others alot of X2024 live footage! Do Enjoy!
Click.. Click... Click...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoNpayBLEI8&list=PLMlsVz_cMR1QA.. |
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Mibri
Registered: Feb 2018
Posts: 209 |
Nice one Magic, thanks for putting my daft little video in there! |
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HOL2001
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 91 |
@Magic: Many thanks for the video. :) |
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Knight Rider
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 116 |
Quoting TimWe apologize for people bringing fake Commodore hoodies. Those responsible for inviting those people have been sacked.
He went on later to to the home compute museum and was offloading them there too. I wanted to tell the fella buying that he can get 5 for the same price in 8 days direct from China :P |
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Tim
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 77 |
Quote: Quoting TimWe apologize for people bringing fake Commodore hoodies. Those responsible for inviting those people have been sacked.
He went on later to to the home compute museum and was offloading them there too. I wanted to tell the fella buying that he can get 5 for the same price in 8 days direct from China :P
Once a salesman, always a salesman. He has been accused of commercialism more then once, I have been told. Anyway, the talk was nice :) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 449 |
I also want to chime in with highest praise for the organizers of the bestestestest demo party in the world [... as I know it :-)]! Thank you very, very much.
RL has been really hard and stressful for me this year so far and it was so great to have that little "oasis" of beautiful people. As usual: I hope I didn't stand to much in the way – didn't get on too many nerves with my, well kind of "outgoing" / "maniac" attitude :-)
I'm not sure why I found myself wrestling with MacX that one evening – I felt it was because we both may like some kind of "rough fun" from time to time – and I hope he also sees it that way.
Anyway: I find it so sad, that the "X every year" experiment was a "failure" from the organizers perspective. I'd really love to meet you all every year. But I do unterstand that not everyone has X "around the corner" like I have and tbh. if I had to pay the same amount or more for getting there like for the entry I also wouldn't have been able to make it this year.
Thank you to all you lovely people, for your kind words. It was a blast talking to everyone I talked to.
As I already wrote in the slide at the music compo:
Love, Peace and Krawall :-) |
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Tim
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 77 |
Quote: I also want to chime in with highest praise for the organizers of the bestestestest demo party in the world [... as I know it :-)]! Thank you very, very much.
RL has been really hard and stressful for me this year so far and it was so great to have that little "oasis" of beautiful people. As usual: I hope I didn't stand to much in the way – didn't get on too many nerves with my, well kind of "outgoing" / "maniac" attitude :-)
I'm not sure why I found myself wrestling with MacX that one evening – I felt it was because we both may like some kind of "rough fun" from time to time – and I hope he also sees it that way.
Anyway: I find it so sad, that the "X every year" experiment was a "failure" from the organizers perspective. I'd really love to meet you all every year. But I do unterstand that not everyone has X "around the corner" like I have and tbh. if I had to pay the same amount or more for getting there like for the entry I also wouldn't have been able to make it this year.
Thank you to all you lovely people, for your kind words. It was a blast talking to everyone I talked to.
As I already wrote in the slide at the music compo:
Love, Peace and Krawall :-)
Thank you very much! That means a lot to us <3 |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1050 |
Quoting spider-jI'm not sure why I found myself wrestling with MacX that one evening – I felt it was because we both may like some kind of "rough fun" from time to time – and I hope he also sees it that way.
I know macx pretty well, I'm sure it was the highlight of the party for him :)
Quoting spider-jAnyway: I find it so sad, that the "X every year" experiment was a "failure" from the organizers perspective. I'd really love to meet you all every year.
For me it was simply too much work during the last year and I definitely need a break from organizing.
At the same time, I really loved this X and that's because everybody, with you as a prime example, brought better than good vibes :) The atmosphere felt totally awesome the entire weekend. I also want to party with all of you on a regular basis :)
We are going to evaluate everything properly amongst the orgas. Next X will be 2026, but let's see what we do after that :) |
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Youth
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 41 |
I'll say it again. X is the best all-inclusive mini-holiday I can imagine. Not just includes accommodation and food, but also non stop emersion in c64 stuff and being surrounded by supercool like-minded people and long-time friends. And so very well organized. Thanks a lot X team! |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 252 |
Quoting Burglar
Quoting spider-jI'm not sure why I found myself wrestling with MacX that one evening – I felt it was because we both may like some kind of "rough fun" from time to time – and I hope he also sees it that way.
I know macx pretty well, I'm sure it was the highlight of the party for him :)
Us northerners have a cultural bias of wanting to die in battle - in order to reach Valhalla. For that reason we often go into moshpit-mode with our dearest friends when inebriated.
Lovely party! You are the best. The c64 scene is an ongoing Max Headroom incident and X is a peak to indulge. |
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Comos
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 72 |
Cool party as usual :)
Had a great chat with my heroes from Radwar/F5 and Walter,many thanks for the Turrican history insight.
Psycho8580,TheRyk,Linus , that late evening Chuck Norris stuff was hilarious, lol :)
@X-party organizers: What are the beer stats for this year? :) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 449 |
Quoting macxUs northerners have a cultural bias of wanting to die in battle - in order to reach Valhalla. For that reason we often go into moshpit-mode with our dearest friends when inebriated.
Oh, then thanks for the honor!
I suspected sth. like that, but because bitrot in my brain was quite advanced at that hour I wasn't completely sure when I woke up the next day. Because around here we usually only go into moshpit-mode when there's a metal or punk band playing :-)
After all we here are called the "nation of poets and philosophers" and know the concept of "battle" mostly in theory ;-) |
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 430 |
Quote: Quoting macxUs northerners have a cultural bias of wanting to die in battle - in order to reach Valhalla. For that reason we often go into moshpit-mode with our dearest friends when inebriated.
Oh, then thanks for the honor!
I suspected sth. like that, but because bitrot in my brain was quite advanced at that hour I wasn't completely sure when I woke up the next day. Because around here we usually only go into moshpit-mode when there's a metal or punk band playing :-)
After all we here are called the "nation of poets and philosophers" and know the concept of "battle" mostly in theory ;-)
"Oh, then thanks for the boner!" <- what Spider really wanted to say. |
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Stinsen
Registered: Feb 2012
Posts: 73 |
Haha Danzig :D |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 252 |
ROFL! No one worthy will pass through north of the Teutoburger Forest anyhow, and with regards to metal are c64 sceners more metal than any band ;-)
Gosh, I am already looking forward to the next Pre-X and X.
Boar's Head Tavern | byob.hopto.org:64128 |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 449 |
Hehe ...
Quoting Danzig"Oh, then thanks for the boner!" <- what Danzig really wanted to hear / read.
Fixed that for you. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2086 |
First of all I LOLed a lot about that spider/macx story.
Having met macx right when arriving at the parking lot (telling me about underwater rugby in Luebeck still giving a pretty serious lecture and an almost sobre impression) and meeting him an hour later talking everybody into drinking Raspberry Schnaps to direct us faster to Valhalla was just wonderful. By the way, that Schnaps wasn't bad at all! Next time I'm gonna have more of it.
Quoting macx...
Lovely party! You are the best. The c64 scene is an ongoing Max Headroom incident and X is a peak to indulge.
I 2nd that.
Quoting 'Comos'
Psycho8580,TheRyk,Linus , that late evening Chuck Norris stuff was hilarious, lol :)
Erhm... Obviously I partied harder than I remember, but sounds like me/fun, so probably true story :D
Quoting 'Youth'I'll say it again. X is the best all-inclusive mini-holiday I can imagine. Not just includes accommodation and food, but also non stop emersion in c64 stuff and being surrounded by supercool like-minded people and long-time friends. And so very well organized. Thanks a lot X team!
Every word of it is true. This year especially the food (in former years often a matter of taste/something whiners used to whine about) was really quite alright. Just saying, so orgas might serve the same menu in 2026.
Hugs to Burg, Tim, Oxbow, DJS, Dylotic, Mace, Mr.Ammo and all the people in the background! I've been attending for 12 years now (only interruption was pandemic), I've said it before and I'm gonna say it again: THIS party rulez! Just btw, nothing compares, but X also inspired me a lot as orga of our 50-100 people party BCC, acting and feeling a little like my X orga Heroes Burglar and Tim is always very motivating (especially when orga things don't work out, exploding toilets or power supplies and whatnot).
Cured my hangover almost completely (mostly by not overdoing the not-drinking part of the cure), all the memories will make me smile for the next 2 years and can't wait to nerd-party again with all you international crazy 8 bit 1337 bastards!
Cheers/Skål
Ryk |
