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Digger
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 421 |
Release id #232976 : Next Level
Well, well. I think that such demo deserves a thread here.
I already spoke with BitBreaker about some things, and what puzzles me is the process behind capturing 100 games by Pex. This part has absolutely crushed me during the compo – great idea and execution there!
However, I must say some game screens felt pretty static (I guess due to amount of VIC/SID data needed to be captured and played back) and some classic (e.g. Turrican) games were missing.
I was wondering if it crossed your mind to compromise on the amount of games but keep 'em on screen for twice as long.
And of course if @Mahoney would share some secrets about the capturing process it would be awesome. Thx. |
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ws
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 229 |
Unpopular opinion:
1. i loved Next Level (and all that happened at X and that X happened). The 100 Games Part really was what i wanted to see on a c64 and all the other fx roxxored
2. but ...
is it really noteworthy to do stuff with superior systems and then boil it down to a common denominator platform? like the c64 and its restrictions are just a filter mechanism? just asking. just some doubts. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11137 |
Sounds like you have been living under a rock the past decade(s) |
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ws
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 229 |
Ok, i'm sorry i asked. Please excuse. Oof. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2853 |
Quoting wsis it really noteworthy to do stuff with superior systems and then boil it down to a common denominator platform?
🤔 |
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ws
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 229 |
@ Krill - as i said i am sorry. Kein Grund nachzutreten. Its okay. Done. I lose. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 422 |
The old school programmer: "We choose to code demos and other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard." |
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Bitbreaker
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 500 |
Quoting wsUnpopular opinion:
is it really noteworthy to do stuff with superior systems and then boil it down to a common denominator platform? like the c64 and its restrictions are just a filter mechanism? just asking. just some doubts.
That might be the perspective of some. I see it the other way round: How can i make an idea happen on a machine with the following restrictions and how do i exploit a machine totake advantage in that certain task. If you think it is all easy because there's superior machines that do most of the work, you haven't understood much. It still implies to do all kind of tools, to know all kind of techniques to achieve that goal. I am using more illegal opcodes and coding tricks than ever before on a 6510. Superior machines open up a wider range of possibilities and save time when all is set up, that doesn't however make it easier, but allows for even more complex and difficult stuff. I observe people love to question the way things are achieved if they can't keep track on their own.
So things appear to be easy, as the makers speak with ease about the process of creation, in fact it needs a huge knowledge as background to do so. Seeing how many already fail in building tools or having proper build-processes, it should be obvious that many hurdles and obstacles need to be taken to create such demos. And it is fun, just like climbing up mountains, although it is way more exhausting than a little stroll. Things evolve and that means changes, that is what scares people most, as they are scared to not keep up anymore. Understandable! But holding back for others to feel comfortable? No! |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2853 |
Quoting BitbreakerIf you think it is all easy because there's superior machines that do most of the work It's just another of the numerous asymmetries in the computing world. =)
Division is more complex than multiplication.
Encoding is more complex than decoding.
Solving a problem is more complex than verifying the solution.
And so on.
Numbercrunching for a demo is more complex than executing it.
So better do this with more computing power at development time than at run-time.
This is also somewhat universal and a thing on modern platforms, too.
And it was a thing for C-64 development already back in the 1980's. =) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 573 |
Yeah, with modern demos, there’s often a huge amount of work that goes into the data generation that is easy to overlook. A lot of the effects that I make involve writing 1000s of lines of C++ that does data analysis, compression, reordering and spewing out ASM and BIN files that are then “just” compiled and linked into a C64 prg. The actual handwritten ASM might be simple… but the amount of work, and the difficulty, is still very much there.
Performers’ demo at X was a real standout. A deserved winner for sure for me. And that side 4 on Censor’s demo, also, wow (that one’s hard for me to quantify because I just never coded such a synth/digi part before - but reading Algorithm’s analysis of exactly what’s going on made me realise that, yes, it’s something very special).
Story demos are a lot of work too, a hell of a lot goes into them. Just try coding up a single, simple bitmap animation and you soon realise - it’s a lot of hard work and effort. C64 isn’t PC, you can’t just plug in a HTML5 renderer and move some PNGs around the screen.
So, yeah, I think all deserve praise. Everyone who entered at X does. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1037 |
Quoting RaistlinJust try coding up a single, simple bitmap animation and you soon realise - it’s a lot of hard work and effort. Actually, png2prg 1.2 supports animations out of the box :)
but I get your point and it is true, I just never let an opportunity slide to shamelessly plug png2prg :) |
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